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Untraceable Father on Marriage Cert

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    Untraceable Father on Marriage Cert

    Hi everyone,

    I just joined the site, and I'm still down in the dumps from disappointment caused by the recent lack of progress on a long-term brick wall of mine.

    I ordered the 1877 marriage cert. for my 2xG Grandparents, hoping to find the parents of my 2xG G/mother Elizabeth France.
    I already had information that she was born around 1857/1858 in Slaithwaite, Yorkshire (1911 census was the most specific).

    For whatever reason she was married in Widnes, Lancs., not Yorkshire, and her occupation column was blank. Her father was noted as Joseph France, an Office Clerk. Her spouse, John Evans, gave the wrong age (21, but he was 18), and in the census prior to the marriage he was in "Corner of Hoole Lane & Boughton - Certified Ragged Industrial School, Boughton, Chester, Cheshire, England". He also didn't give his middle name, Henry. So, a troubled boy? All this makes me wonder just how reliable the rest of the cert. info is. Although, he did give the right father's name and occupation, and his own occupation: 'Sawyer'. Witnesses: Edwin Davies & Mary Hobson (not relations, that I know of).

    I have gone through all the possible censuses I could find with the name Elizabeth FRANCE or Joseph FRANCE in Huddersfield and Prescot districts, and there are plenty families there, but none of them match. I've looked on the GRO index for the Mother's names for all the possible Elizabeth Frances born around the right time, and none of them married a Joseph. I've looked at the possible pre 1861 census deaths for a Joseph France, but none of them quite fit: they're too old, or too young to be likely. I've even traced all the 'France' marriages in Prescot around the same time Elizabeth was married there to see if they may be siblings, but nothing hopeful showed up.

    A William France bc1855 in Lancashire, father JOSEPH France, mother Martha Glover, was married in Prescot 5 years after my Elizabeth's marriage, but his parents and siblings were all born in Lancs, there was no sister Elizabeth, and father's occupation was Watch Tool Maker

    Does anyone have any ideas how to look at this and problem & what to try next?

    #2
    Can you give the link or reference to the 1911 census you have please?
    Margaret

    Comment


      #3
      I have found an Elizabeth France born in Slaithwaite, but her father is John.

      http://search.findmypast.co.uk/recor...1%2f0016936320


      Sand Hill, Marsden in Huddersfield, Huddersfield, Yorkshire

      John France Head Married Male 30 1831 Cotton Twister Slaithwaite, Yorkshire, England
      Mary France Wife Married Female 25 1836 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
      Elizabeth France Daughter - Female 5 1856 - Slaithwaite, Yorkshire, England
      Lula M France Daughter - Female 3 1858 - Slaithwaite, Yorkshire, England
      George C France Son - Male 1 1860 - Slaithwaite, Yorkshire, England

      Ecclesiastical district St Bartholomews
      Registration district Huddersfield
      Enumeration district 10
      Archive reference RG09
      Piece number 3244
      Folio number 20
      Page number 5


      It wouldn't be the first time that the details of the bride's father were wrong, but you would have to investigate further.
      Elizabeth
      Research Interests:
      England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
      Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

      Comment


        #4
        Hmm, an Ancestry tree has her marrying Walter Jagger, so it might not be her.
        Elizabeth
        Research Interests:
        England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
        Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

        Comment


          #5
          Back to the drawing board, as this girl isn't correct. Her marriage to Walter is on Ancestry.
          Elizabeth
          Research Interests:
          England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
          Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

          Comment


            #6
            Hi Lena and welcome to FTF
            Could you tell us which of their children is your direct ancestor please, so that we can find the right family.

            I assume this is the family you are researching in 1881? -
            https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

            1891 -
            https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

            p.s. I haven't found them any later yet and I can't find the 1911 census you refer to.
            Last edited by Chrissie Smiff; 25-03-17, 08:41.
            Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

            Comment


              #7
              Ahhh found them in 1911 -

              https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

              Comment


                #8
                1901
                63, Edgeware Street, West Derby,
                Registration district West Derby
                Archive reference RG13
                Piece number 3493
                Folio 92
                Page 36
                Kat
                https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                Comment


                  #9
                  might have got myself in a twist but might this be her christening
                  Elizabeth France christening:
                  30 July 1860
                  Honley, York, England
                  residence:
                  Honley, York, England
                  father:
                  Joseph France
                  mother:
                  Jane France


                  Val

                  Comment


                    #10
                    maybe the marriage ignore me if I'm way out have a headache.:(
                    Name Joseph France
                    Birth Date 1823
                    Age 26
                    Spouse's Name Jane Ann Carr
                    Spouse's Birth Date 1827
                    Spouse's Age 22
                    Event Date 08 Jan 1849
                    Event Place Kirkheaton, York, England
                    Father's Name Josh. France
                    Spouse's Father's Name Wm. Carr


                    Val

                    Comment


                      #11
                      wonder if this is him in 1861 says I F he is an office clerk maybe it should be J F


                      First name I
                      Last name F
                      Relationship Lunatic Patient
                      Marital status Married
                      Gender Male
                      Age 33
                      Birth year 1828
                      Occupation Office Clerk
                      Birth town Farlam
                      Birth town as transcribed FARLAM
                      Birth county Cumberland
                      Birth county as transcribed CUMBERLAND
                      Birth place (other) England
                      Parish Whickham
                      City or borough -
                      County Durham
                      Country England
                      Municipal ward -
                      Parliamentary borough -
                      Registration district Gateshead
                      Enumeration district -
                      Archive reference RG09
                      Piece number 3807
                      Folio number 151
                      Page number 7
                      Last edited by Val wish Id never started; 25-03-17, 14:56.


                      Val

                      Comment


                        #12
                        That looks quite promising, Val.

                        There is an Elizabeth France with mmn Carr in the new GRO index, born in Huddersfield RD, but in 1854.

                        The Joseph France- Jane Ann Carr marriage is on Ancestry:

                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...nSearchResults

                        His occupation looks like stock dresser, whatever that is.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I couldn't find a birth with mmn Carr Val, but how about this for a theory?

                          Birth of Elizabeth France June quarter 1860 Huddersfield (Covers Honley) MMN Dyson.
                          Marriage of Joseph France and Jane Dyson December 1853 Huddersfield.

                          Death of Joseph France - September 1868 Huddersfield aged 48 (he was 40 in 1861)
                          Death of Jane France - March 1871 Huddersield aged 37 (she was 27 in 1861)

                          1861 - I know Joseph is a Grocer but Elizabeth is only 10 months old and I have possible deaths for father and mother before 1871, so she may not have known what he did?
                          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true

                          1871 - the children are with a widowed aunt Mary France (previously married to John France) -
                          http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...try&h=29275244
                          Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Sorry Mary, it took me so long to compile it that I hadn't seen your reply.
                            Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Just in case, this is the marriage of Joseph France and Jane Dyson -

                              https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
                              Chrissie passed away in January 2020.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Hi Elizabeth.
                                Yes, this family was one of the notes I made, and kept going back to. I think her mother here would be Mary MacKnolty, I was looking into it a little last night. Thanks for following her up. I have a crazy amount of notes now! lol

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Thanks for all your researching, Chrissie. The censuses you posted are the right ones for 1881, 1891 and 1911. I do have lots of notes on Jane Dyson, but I guess I was hoping for a better match for father's occupation, and their Elizabeth was registered in 1860... I got all excited when I realised Honley was so near to Slaithwaite. I guess it does seem like the closest match. With the possible death info it makes it more interesting.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Hi Mary,
                                    I'm having another look at Jane Ann Carr. I've found that someone has an Ancestry tree with her in, but no record of a daughter Elizabeth in their research, so it's not very thorough. I'll see if I can find anything else. I had found a Joseph France who was a pawn broker, who went to prison for 5 years for receiving stolen property. He went back to being a 'broker' once he was back out. He did have a daughter Elizabeth at the right time, but the whole family was from Manchester. Whatever happens it seems that I will have to compromise on the closeness of the match with the marriage cert. info that I started with, which I don't like! Thanks for taking time to help.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Probate entry for Joseph France of Slaithwaite who died in 1859:

                                      https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
                                      Elizabeth
                                      Research Interests:
                                      England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
                                      Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        This is the probate for Joseph France of Honley. They seem a well-to-do family.

                                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interacti...&usePUBJs=true
                                        Elizabeth
                                        Research Interests:
                                        England:Purkis, Stilwell, Quintrell, White (Surrey - Guildford), Jeffcoat, Bond, Alexander, Lamb, Newton (Lincolnshire, Stalybridge, London)
                                        Scotland:Richardson (Banffshire), Wishart (Kincardineshire), Johnston (Kincardineshire)

                                        Comment

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