Help with birthplace, please

[GallowayLass]

Arrived on the 15th November 1910 on the Dominion from Liverpool

Is that a bit quick for an Atlantic crossing. William, the Joiner left on the 5th November 1910

Vera

No. 10 days was a bit slow. Around 1910 the average crossing was a week. Luxury liners like the Mauritania and Lusitania could do it in 5 days.

[GallowayLass]

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/74...l=ReturnRecord

This is an Ancestry cross ref of Charles Lewin

Liverpool to New York
17th May 1903
b 1878 aged 25
Single
on the Etruria

Image shows that he is a Groom. Last destination Stamford, England. In transit to what looks like Bro Bryan in Collingwood, Ontario, Canada

Vera

I saw that one too Vera but wasn't sure about the groom as occupation but then later last night I saw the attestation paper and he was a groom. What really confused me though was "Bro" Bryan. On the 1881 and 1891, I could not see that our man had a brother called Bryan but his mother's maiden surname was Bryan according to his 2nd marriage in 1924. I wonder if the clerk should have written "uncle" instead? I think it looks like the right man though. Going out to see if a new life would be a good thing for him.

[GallowayLass]

Charles is now C of E but the bride is of the Gospel Workers.

I Googled Gospel Workers and found that they were actually Methodists with a string connection to Collingwood, Ontario. Here's a link to page on Google Books

http://bit.ly/1OYgeBm

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Gosh, girls, I had to go off early last night and you HAVE been busy during my absence - thank you so much.
The groom & Stamford details for the 1903 sailing fit in with the military record of Charles, as does Collingwood match what we know of WC.
On my other thread, Bill asked if I knew of anything to connect his grandfather WCL with being a church minister - I didn't but suggested he may have been a Methodist or of some other non-conformist persuasion. Could Bro have signified Brother Bryan, a church leader as well as a possible relative???

I've gone back through my Colman notes to see if I can find any member of the extended family who enlisted, but as yet, I haven't found any link. I suppose a soldier friend of William/Charles could have been friendly with a friend of Anna's and that's how the couple met?? Or a pen-pals type arrangement through the church to recruit potential brides for expanding populations - the precursor to internet dating!

Will have a look at the Gospel workers link this evening - I have to go out now.
Once again, thanks for all your help.

Jay

[GallowayLass]

String connection??? That should have been strong. Oops!

[vera2013]

No. 10 days was a bit slow. Around 1910 the average crossing was a week. Luxury liners like the Mauritania and Lusitania could do it in 5 days.

Thank for the info Galloway Lass. Much quicker than I thought.

Must be William the Joiner as even with the quick voyage, the ship would not be able to do a return trip within 10 days. Not sure that makes sense.

Brother Bryan sounds good Jay. Pity Ancestry does not have border crossings for that period. Not sure if there are any at all.

No evidence of Anna Maria visiting Canada and on all the relevant Census up to marriage. I wonder, as you say an Army or Church connection. He went off to Canada pretty soon after leaving the Army.

Vera

[vera2013]

AnnaMaria1912Capture.PNG

Wonder could this be Bretheren or perhaps there is a place called Brotheron. On Anna Maria's return to Canada 1912

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I can get as far as CPR - Canadian pacific Railway - but nowhere with a place begin "Broth*" or "Breth*"
Good find, Vera.

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

1871 Q4 marriage Uppingham Reg Dist
Daniel Lewin mar
EDITH Bryan or Ann Warren Kirby

In 1871 Daniel Lewin was in Bisbrooke, a widower with 4 children. So, it looks like Charles's mother was a second wife.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1871&indiv=try&h=17302120

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Could this be Edith?

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LEIRG10_3290_3294-0657/15676865?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dedith%26gsln%3dbryan%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1846%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d10%26msbpn__ftp%3d%2bRutland%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d5281%26msbpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c5281%257c0%257c0%257c%26msrpn__ftp%3dRutland%252c%2bEngland%26msrpn%3d5281%26msrpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%257c5281%257c0%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3db78%26pcat%3d1871UKI%26h%3d15676865%26db%3duki1871%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=LEIRG10_3290_3294-0657

The age is slightly out.

Note the next household to where Edith worked: there is a 7 yr old grandson W Fred Bryan.
IF the age of Edith in census is out by 4 years, then this boy COULD have been her son, and IF it was the right lady to become the second Mrs Daniel Lewin, W Fred would have the half-brother of her Lewin children.
(All ifs and ands and buts, I know.)

Jay

[vera2013]

I was taking a look at Edith last night and saw that one. Got in a bit of a muddle too. There is another one with an Edith with grandsons William and George H.

I was following George H who I think could be Edith's brother. He went out to Canada in 1891 and could be the Bro Bryan as he married a girl called Emma Grey. Wasn't there some connection with the Grey family and the adoption of Alice?

I digress. I will check out that census for Edith (grandmother). Think it was 1881.

Vera

[vera2013]

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/RUTRG10_3304_3308-0315/17309237?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d17309237&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=RUTRG10_3304_3308-0315

1871 Census

Edith Bryan aged 60 born Nottingham
Francis aged 7 b Barrowden
George H aged 3 b 1868 Barrowden
living Barrowden

The previous post should have read Grandsons Frances and George H who could be Edith's nephew and Charles Lewin's Cousin.

Vera

[vera2013]

Think that is Edith in the 1871 as a Servant but don't think that is her son William F.

This is perhaps him in the 1881 with parents Benjamin and Sarah A living in Melton Mowbray. Sarah A is cross referenced with a Sarah A Bond on Ancestry

Benjamin aged 44
Sarah A aged 40
William F aged 16 born Melton Mowbray

living Sydney Street, Melton Mowbray

Vera

[GallowayLass]

I like the CPR being the railway, good find. I've been googling away and have come up with two matches on a map c. 85 miles from Collingwood. Brotherson's Lake which is a lake and Brotherson's Bay which isn't a bay on the coast - it seems to be another lake or a bay in a lake? I wonder if the railway went there?

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thank you Vera - I've given myself a headache again trying to fit together a jigsaw with only half the pieces!
Yes, it was JOHN Grey who adopted Alice, so there could well be some connection; part of a complex extended family network.

There were also Bryans in Collingwood from about 1891 and after, and I think the parents would certainly have been of Edith's generation or perhaps older.
Charles/William was certainly quick off the mark going over to Canada after his discharge from the army, which is why I have a "feeling" he may already have had some sort of family connection there. Serving in India would have opened his eyes a bit compared with his father's life as an ag lab in rural Rutland. Perhaps the relatives helped arrange a job for him in the Collingwood shipbuilding yards?
If only I could fathom out how his relationship with Alice began?

I will have to try and record some of the people I keep coming across in my searches - that was I may be able to piece some bits together.
Nobody ever claimed family history was easy, not if they wanted to be sure they'd got it "right" anyway.

Jay

[vera2013]

Yes he hopped over the Canada pretty sharpish. So not much time for courting. Think religion played a part somewhere. George H b 1867 Rutland was Gospel Hall (Had one in our Town) and an Engineer in the shipyard.

Think as you say it was some pen pal situation. I recall when first going to London our next door neighbour who worshipped at the Gospel Hall sorted myself and my friend out with accommodation via a Methodist connection in the suburbs. Soon moved out of there mind to the bright lights. Happy days.

I find it all fascinating but do tend to get carried away.

I noticed Galloway Lass that Anna Maria when returning in 1912 did not say, as others on the manifest did, that she was going to 'husband', Cousin, Parents. So likely to be a place or a Community

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I wondered if the dock linked up with the CPR and you went so far on that and then disembarked and connected with a local railway line? I tried googling Brotherton & variants, but couldn't find anything, so well done on that score. Makes perfect sense that it didn't show up on "places" if the name refers to a physical feature. I expect the CP railway would be built in sections and because of the vastness of crossing Canada, it would be planned in straight lines, not meandering around to link up various towns. Often in North America, Australia etc the settlements came AFTER/as a result of the railway, whereas in the UK, much smaller country and already well settled pre-railway, it was more a case of the railways being built to "join up" the places, for transportation of raw goods, manufactured items etc as well as transportation for people. I think people carriage was a spin off for the railway investors.

Jay

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I haven't been able to locate Brotherson's anything on a map :( - what direction is it from Collingwood, please?

Jay

[vera2013]

http://travelingluck.com/North+America/Canada/Ontario/_5909656_Brotherson's+Lake.html

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Thanks Vera. I think the CPR ran from Montreal to Toronto and then turned north to travel up east of Lake Huron. The CPR had fingers in lots of pies and possibly bought out, or ran in conjunction with, some of the minor railways. Looks like it would have been a connection point to get a train heading towards Collingwood.

Jay