Kavanagh - birkenhead - california

[Olde Crone Holden]

Well, I didn't want to confuse things even more,lol, but it did occur to me that it would be very easy to swap identities in the circumstances, if that was to the survivor's advantage! So the James who survived may really have been Patrick.

On the other hand it may just have been a straightforward case of a man abandoning his wife and children and starting again in the USA. He must have done, to have descendants.

I wonder what date Margaret's birth was registered because the informant already knew her father was dead. Would news have travelled that quickly in those days?

OC

[ARickett]

Well, I didn't want to confuse things even more,lol, but it did occur to me that it would be very easy to swap identities in the circumstances, if that was to the survivor's advantage! So the James who survived may really have been Patrick.

On the other hand it may just have been a straightforward case of a man abandoning his wife and children and starting again in the USA. He must have done, to have descendants.

I wonder what date Margaret's birth was registered because the informant already knew her father was dead. Would news have travelled that quickly in those days?

OC

Margaret was born 6th Oct and birth was registered 16th Oct. it wouldn't have taken long to hear as ships went back and forth from the U.S. To Liverpool constantly in those days.

[Olde Crone Holden]

But Patrick died on the 17th! The day AFTER Margaret's birth was registered.

My take on all this is that James left his marriage and his wife knew he had left. She claimed to be a widow because that was more respectable. Patrick committed suicide on board ship, James started a new life in America and has descendants.

OC

[ARickett]

No, this was too late in October.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

You have been told a hearsay story by someone who was not a first hand witness and only has vague details. Our findings fit the story you were told but the interpretation is a different one.

OC

[vera2013]

Just putting another side for one man being Patrick/James and bearing in mind I know little about ship's manifest. I always thought that only one manifest was drawn up and that one was used for arrivals records (Castle Garden in this case) of those who survived the journey.

I can only see one Kavanagh on the SS America manifest for NY 22nd October 1886 (James) but cannot see a record of a Kavanagh arriving at Castle Garden off the SS America on the 22 October 1886.

However bearing in mind that Margaret was registered on the 16th October 1886 and a James/Patrick died on the 17th October 1886 the theory that OC puts in place is very likely but then who is the Patrick aged 40 (same age as James on the manifest) who drowned.

Vera

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I've been trying to do a bit of digging on the background of James C/Kavanagh to ascertain what brothers he had - there is more than one possible candidate for James!
Can you confirm the mother's maiden name as recorded on Margaret's birth certificate? IF it was Smyth, then it would seem likely that the James Kavanagh who married Elizabeth Smith Q1 1872 in Birkenhead Reg Dist is our man. Has anyone got the marriage certificate to confirm that the father of James was Patrick?

I have found a family headed by a Patrick Cavanagh in 1861 - There is a son James of the right age (born c 1847) and a younger son Patrick born 1858; however this Patrick would have been nearly 30 rather than 40 in 1886 and the family lived in Prescot in 1861. Isn't that nearer to Manchester than to Liverpool and Birkenhead??

Jay

[Tilly Mint]

Jay, Prescot is just on the outskirts of Liverpool if this helps.

"Prescot is a town and civil parish within the Metropolitan Borough of Knowsley in Merseyside, England. Historically part of Lancashire, it lies about eight miles (13 km) to the east of Liverpool city centre."

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Jay, Prescot is just on the outskirts of Liverpool if this helps.

"Prescot is a town and civil parish within the Metropolitan Borough of Knowsley in Merseyside, England. Historically part of Lancashire, it lies about eight miles (13 km) to the east of Liverpool city centre."

Thanks Jacky

[Olde Crone Holden]

I haven't found the death of Elizabeth C/Kavanagh in 1900. The only one I find in Birkenhead is an infant.

Seems straightforward to me. James and Patrick sail to America and on the way Patrick commits suicide. Elizabeth knows Jamesbis not coming back and she has no intention of going to America, so declares herself a widow to avoid any awkward questions. The fact that Patrick committed suicide is just a coincidence, which Elizabeth could not have known about when she registered Margaret's birth, and really has nothing to do with what happened to James.

I would be looking for James' death in the USA not England.

OC

[ARickett]

Hello Janet, haven't been on this site for a while so just saw your post. I was actually in Birkenhead and Dundalk in May meeting up with some newly found cousins in both towns. I met Margaret who is the granddaughter of Margaret Kavanagh (James and Elizabeth's youngest child born when he was deceased). She is nearly 80 now and had lots of photos and info re the rest of the family but nothing on James. I did my DNA back in Feb. and it was through that being uploaded that I found another unknown branch of the family, Loughran. Second husband to the original Margaret K. I was also able finally to confirm my grandmother Bridget Watters' biological father when in Dundalk. So all this good stuff happening but nothing on James. I continue to search. Angela

[ARickett]

I have Elizabeth's death cert. myself. She died 9 Mar 1900 in Birkenhead.

[ARickett]

Just re-reading your comment again - yes I have the original marriage cert. and it shows James' father as Patrick (deceased) Jan 1872. I have always assumed he arrived in Birkenhead sometime between April and Dec. 1871 as he is not in the England Census 1871. I also have seen the Prescot, Lancs. Kavanagh family but the father is still around in later census. Also Birkenhead was probably where James and Elizabeth first arrived as they couldjust take the ferry boat from Dublin - hence no passenger lists!!