Grandad/Great Grandad

[margaretmarch]

I think you are on the right lines on this one - hence the difficulty finding a birth record etc. We shall have to wait for Ron to reply before we can do much more.
Margaret

[redron]

morning all

Yes we have been here before last year,i never really got far so i left it alone for a while and done my Grans,my grandad date of birth was 26/08/1903,i know the month and day are correct as it was 3 days before mine the year i am deducting from the wedding cert,i am going into the local history library on Thursday to see what i can find on the microfiche,i applied for his birth cert on the info i had but the registrar said the details were incorrect,i will look on his death cert in the library on Thursday i also think they lived at 3 Burgess Building Salford,which was just off peel street,because later my uncle lived there also Ron

[Chrissie Smiff]

Morning Ron
So can you tell us please when your grandfather died?
p.s. If he died in 1975 in Salford the date of birth given i.e. 23rd August 1902 would fit in well with what you know and make him much easier to trace back.

[redron]

Hiya Chrissie,yes my grandad died in 1975,and my gran in 1991,i never saw or heard of any brothers or sisters of my grandad,its all very mixed up with him,as i have said i am going into the history library on thursday to see what i can get from there Ron

[vera2013]

Ron

If the dob as Chrissie indicated for August 1902 is correct, there is a baptism for Charlestown, St George for an Edward. Father is George and mother Sarah Alice. Father's occupation is a ? Mandler/Maudler. Living ?1/75 New Chapel Street.

There is also a marriage in Charlestown St George for George and Sarah Alice for 1899. Address for Sarah ?1/75 Chapel Street.
George is a ??Moulder/Maudler.

There is another child born to a George and Sarah Alice. Lilian baptised 1905 Carlestown, St George. Father George's occupation is what now looks like Mangler. Address 18 Maud Street.

A tree on Ancestry has Lilian marrying James Armitt (I believe he was a witness at Edward's wedding in 1924). A Lilian Taylor does in fact marry a James Armitt in Salford in 1925

Will try to load the links altogether.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=manchesterbaptismscro&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=george&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=taylor&msbdy=1900&msbpn__ftp=salford%2c+lancashire&msfng0=george&msmng0=sarah+alice&cpxt=1&uidh=326&msbdp=1&_83004003-n_xcl=f&cp=11&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&fh=37&h=1995691&recoff=10+29+30+31+42+43

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2960&iid=40364_635001_2539-00021&fn=Edward&ln=Taylor&st=r&ssrc=&pid=1995691

Well that didn't work. Thats Edward x 4. I will try again.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2962&iid=40364_635001_2536-00106&fn=George&ln=Taylor&st=r&ssrc=&pid=233479

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2960&iid=40364_635001_2539-00063&fn=Lilian&ln=Taylor&st=r&ssrc=&pid=1996360

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...1276768&recoff=

Vera

[Chrissie Smiff]

Well done Vera - that certainly looks like them. I think the witness is the clincher

So to summerise my post above -
Elizabeth Taylor was born 25th December 1903 and died in Salford Jan 1991 aged 87.

Edward Taylor born 23rd August 1902 - Died April-June 1975 Salford aged 72.

[vera2013]

Thanks to you Chrissie. You brought that witness over and it rang a bell when I saw it attached to a tree. Have only given a quick look but can't seem to find anyone of this family in 1911.

Vera

[margaretmarch]

Great work Vera! I think you've cracked it for Ron.
Margaret

[Chrissie Smiff]

I have just looked at that tree Vera and they have a George Inkerman Taylor, born 1900, as a brother of Lilian. No mention of Edward or any 1911 census though. They have a photo of the son George Inkerman Taylor with his family in later years too.

[vera2013]

I hope so Margaret but can't seem to find any of them in 1911. Maybe that is why George was possibly with his Aunt Elizabeth.

Chrissie

In my travels I found a George born 1900. Sarah Alice is a Downie and her father is Alexander Inkerman Downie sometimes known just as Alexander or Inkerman. So could be a brother for Edward.

There is a 1901 census for a George, Sarah and George but it didn't sit quite right. Will see if I can find it again.

Vera

[vera2013]

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1901&h=23345235&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8912

This looks like a better one than the one I lost for 1901. If I remember there was a Hanway as a witness on one of the weddings.

EDIT or maybe not. Same occupation ?Mangler but George snr born in Yorkshire!

Vera

[Chrissie Smiff]

This is the 1901 they have on the tree for George, Sarah and George Vera, as lodgers -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=LANRG13_3720_3722-0123&fn=George&ln=Taylor&st=r&ssrc=pt_t3055270_p-1721207844_kpidz0q3d-1721207844z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=23345233

Oh, I see that's the same one they have Vera

[Chrissie Smiff]

They have got him born in Hippleholme (think this should be Hipperholme) or Lightcliffe in Yorkshire on all the census Vera. Thisis what they have for 1891 when the family have moved to Pendleton. Of course we don't know what certs they have for all this -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=LANRG12_3207_3209-0081&fn=George&ln=Taylor&st=r&ssrc=pt_t3055270_p-1721207844_kpidz0q3d-1721207844z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&pid=22343604

p.s. It did strike me that this George doesn't appear to have a sister Elizabeth. There is an Eliza who would be a couple of years different to the Elizabeth (aunt)

p.p.s. The aunt says that she was born in Pendleton too but the Eliza was born in Lightcliffe Yorkshire on the census.

[Chrissie Smiff]

There is something not quite feeling right, I know birth dates can get mixed though. Lilian Taylor was christened 19th April 1905 but the mst likely death (1997) for Lilian Armitt in Salford gives her birth date as 22nd May.

I'm beginning to think that with such a common name, one or two certs might be needed. Possible even the marriage of the Elizabeth Taylor to Hughes, to check her fathers name and occupation?

[vera2013]

Its difficult to fit all the info about the George, Edward, Lilian with Aunt Elizabeth Hughes (Taylor) in 1911 census. The possible marriage record for Elizabeth Taylor's 1907 to James Hughes, gives her father as John, a Dyer. Maybe there is a later marriage. First child if I remember born about 1910.

Ron was sure about the 1911 census being his Edward living with an Aunt.

I wonder if the nephew was on the side of James Hughes and that one of James' sister's (if he had one) married a Taylor. Still can't find George Inkerman or Lilian in 1911.

Maybe its time to get back to basics again with that 1902 bc to see what it turns up but will take a look at James Hughes to see if there's anything there.

Vera

[Chrissie Smiff]

Sorry Vera, you're right. I had forgotten that you had posted the marriage. On the other hand Ron didn't know about any aunts, so I think maybe he is just guessing about the 1911.

Have to go and cook the dinner now.

[margaretmarch]

Its difficult to fit all the info about the George, Edward, Lilian with Aunt Elizabeth Hughes (Taylor) in 1911 census. The possible marriage record for Elizabeth Taylor's 1907 to James Hughes, gives her father as John, a Dyer. Maybe there is a later marriage. First child if I remember born about 1910.

Ron was sure about the 1911 census being his Edward living with an Aunt.

I wonder if the nephew was on the side of James Hughes and that one of James' sister's (if he had one) married a Taylor. Still can't find George Inkerman or Lilian in 1911.

Maybe its time to get back to basics again with that 1902 bc to see what it turns up but will take a look at James Hughes to see if there's anything there.

Vera

I think Ron likes the 1911 for Edward with an aunt because that's all he can find based on what he has so it fits but maybe there is something else here that doesn't fit e.g. surname for Edward might not be right if he was born before a marriage of his mother to George Taylor.

I agree we need to go back to basics and whatever we can find from the only record we have which is Edward's marriage.

Margaret

[Chrissie Smiff]

Summary of what we KNOW and also what we think is possible - partly from the Ancestry tree and partly from Vera's research.

We know -
Marriage of Edward Taylor to Elizabeth Streeton – (Jan-March) 1924 at St Paul Pendleton (reg district Salford Lancs)Edward, listed as living at 47 Peel St Salford (in 1924) his father listed as George Taylor – deceased (Dyer)
Witnesses James Armitt and Annie Roberts

Edward Taylor born 23rd August 1902 - Died April-June 1975 Salford aged 72

A Lilian Taylor marries a James Armitt in 1925 in Salford

A possible tree connection
That 1901 census is definitely the right one for the George, Sarah ad George I Taylor as the witnesses and the address for Sarah Alice on the marriage cert are the same as on the census. We just have to establish if this is the right family for Edward.

This is the probate of a John Inkerman Taylor that belongs to a POSSIBLE brother of Edward.No clue to family though, only to a wife. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=15722658

[margaretmarch]

Summary of what we KNOW and also what we think is possible - partly from the Ancestry tree and partly from Vera's research.

We know -
Marriage of Edward Taylor to Elizabeth Streeton – (Jan-March) 1924 at St Paul Pendleton (reg district Salford Lancs)Edward, listed as living at 47 Peel St Salford (in 1924) his father listed as George Taylor – deceased (Dyer)
Witnesses James Armitt and Annie Roberts

Edward Taylor born 23rd August 1902 - Died April-June 1975 Salford aged 72

A Lilian Taylor marries a James Armitt in 1925 in Salford

A possible tree connection
That 1901 census is definitely the right one for the George, Sarah ad George I Taylor as the witnesses and the address for Sarah Alice on the marriage cert are the same as on the census. We just have to establish if this is the right family for Edward.

This is the probate of a John Inkerman Taylor that belongs to a POSSIBLE brother of Edward.No clue to family though, only to a wife. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?h...=&pid=15722658

Have we got a possible birth registration for Edward as that would be the definitive data on his parents?

Margaret

[Chrissie Smiff]

This is the problem Margaret - IF the person registering the death knew his correct birth date and IF he is the one in 1911 and was born in Salford, then we can pin it down to two on Free BMD. From the two quarters - Edward Taylor Sept 1902 Salford ref 8d 70 OR Edward Taylor Dec 1902 Salford ref 8d 181.

On Lancs BMD we get three Edward Thomas births in Salford for 1902 as you can't stipulate the quarter. Two of these are Salford Regent Road and one is Pendleton. My guess is that the 1911 one living as a nephew is probably the one registered under Pendleton.

The main problem seems to be - unless we take it as read that his father was George (as stated on the marriage cert) how would Ron know that this was his grandfather? It would also appear to point to fit with the tree on Ancestry however. Which does look to be a good possibility.

Also, on my summary I forgot to reiterate that on the marriage cert it gives Edwards age as 21 and Elizabeth as 20. I don't think that we have been told yet the actual date of marriage in 1924 but as it was registered in Jan-March then an age of 21 would fit with an August 1902 birth.