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    Something fishy? (or how do I find a divorce)

    I'm researching a distant branch and am tracing the life of Carlyle Alva Quinn, born 03 Dec 1894 in Peterborough, Ontario, Canada. He was kind enough to marry another individual with a unique name, Muriel Lucy Montagu(e) Bate. They married 06 Apr 1914 in British Columbia, Canada. He & Muriel are living in Seattle, WA, USA in 1915, and then he joins the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force at Victoria, BC in Dec 1916. He lists Muriel as his wife. Then Carlyle vanishes until his death in 1978 in Los Angeles, CA.

    Meanwhile, Muriel marries Henry Clark Davis in 1920, has son Donald J Davis born 22 Jan 1915 (raised eyebrows), and dies in San Francisco, CA in 1957, the widow of an eminent physician.

    With the unusual names and consistent dates of birth (if not years), the two are fairly easy to track. But what happened between Muriel & Carlyle? It would appear the war intervened but am I missing something else obvious? I haven't had to search for a divorce before so any suggestions or ideas would be welcome.

    #2
    Perhaps Carlyle went missing presumed dead and he eventually turned up but took the opportunity to start a new life??

    Have you looked for his records with the Expeditionary Force.
    Margaret

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      #3
      The timing of Muriel's marriage to Mr. Davis, and date of Donald's birth just came to light yesterday, so no, I haven't given more than a cursory look at the military records yet. I was checking Ancestry & Google for any indication of a divorce. I'm not even sure if divorce was legal in Canada in the late 19 'teens.

      Both husbands were Canadian by birth. Both the Davis & Quinn families originated in Ontario but seem to have relocated to BC. Also, both Carlyle Quinn & Henry Davis seem to have gone back & forth between BC & Washington, & ended up in California, and both had joined the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force. Henry joined in Oct 1915 in Vernon, BC while Carlyle joined a year later in Victoria. Henry was a medical doctor though, while Carlyle was a clerk when they joined up.

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        #4
        So Muriel &Henry were in CA when they married in 1920? DJD was born in CA or Washington state?

        CA divorce index is on ancestry, and Ancestry also has some WA bmd index. Do you have access to US sub?

        For Henry - if he practiced in the US, he might have an obit in Journal of Am Med Assoc - I found an obit for one of mine there.

        In the US, especially in that time frame, divorce was usually a county record. And while residency was usually required, it might have been quite short - Nevada comes to mind. I believe NV also required less proof of a marriage gone bad, more like a no-fault.

        And, of course: there's no centralized index of divorce, in fact, there seem to be few online indexes of US divorce
        Last edited by PhotoFamily; 16-02-13, 18:00.
        ------------------------------------------------------
        My Families
        London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

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          #5
          I think all the players were born in Canada except the son Donald, and both marriages were in BC. Yes, I have Ancestry WW but am not having any joy with Carlyle. So, what you're saying Sarah, is that divorce records would be really hit & miss to find? I wonder how common it was in those years. The Am Med Assn. sounds like a good idea.

          It gets stranger. I just found a link from the University of Washington which indicates they have the Helen Koleman Quinn Photograph Collection, which includes an explanation as follows: "Helen Koleman Quinn was the only child of James and Harriet Ball Koleman. Her parents met in the home of Mrs. Bailey Gatzert (after her mother emmigrated to Seattle from Germany) and were married on May 11, 1884. Her father, James Koleman, worked for Kline and Rosenberg clothing and furnishing store and the Schwabacher Brothers store. He was also a charter member of Temple de Hirsch. Harriet Koleman was a widely known Seattle pioneer and was active with the Educational Center of Auxiliary of the Red Cross during WWI..Helen Koleman Quinn worked for the Seattle electric company as a secretary and in later years was the District Supervisor of Caltex Sportswear Company. She lived in the Waldorf hotel for many years and spent a significant ammount of time in San Francisco during the late 1920s. She was married to Carlyle Alva Quinn in 1923, and later married Bonham Galland of Spokane." I don't know if this is the same guy, but the name, timing & locations are about right.

          The California Divorce records only go back to 1966 so I'm afraid they won't help much... although now I can watch for at least two divorces.

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            #6
            Originally posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
            I think all the players were born in Canada except the son Donald, and both marriages were in BC. Yes, I have Ancestry WW but am not having any joy with Carlyle. So, what you're saying Sarah, is that divorce records would be really hit & miss to find? I wonder how common it was in those years. The Am Med Assn. sounds like a good idea.

            The California Divorce records only go back to 1966 so I'm afraid they won't help much... although now I can watch for at least two divorces.[/FONT][/COLOR]
            I have 7 g'g'aunts who immigrated with their parents in the 1880s to the Chicago area: three divorced from their first marriages, for a variety of reasons. Divorce laws are state-by-state, so it could be more common/easy in some states than others. That's why people went to NV! Or, as I was thinking after I last posted - Mexico (I think). All the Chicago divorce records were manually retrieved from the Chicago archives - i.e., my cousin paid a researcher to go thru the manual index thru the likely time period; the researcher ordered the archived record; researcher returned when it was retrieved, to photocopy it. You would need to either pay a researcher, or pay the county archives whatever it is they charge. Again, state by state/county by county rules for retrieval.

            I think I googled to find the index for the obit in JAMA, then had to get to a medical library to retrieve the actual obit online - but it's been a while. Didn't have a lot of info, either.

            Did you check the LA papers for an obit for Carlyle? I think the paper is on ancestry
            Last edited by PhotoFamily; 16-02-13, 18:52.
            ------------------------------------------------------
            My Families
            London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

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              #7
              Sounds like the divorce occurred between 1916 & 1920. If you determine where her residence was for those years, you could find out what the local county clerk charges to search the records. Chicago was $9/yr searched, if I recall correctly - plus the cost of the photocopies, if anything was retrieved.
              ------------------------------------------------------
              My Families
              London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

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                #8
                Originally posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
                I'm researching a distant branch and am tracing the life of Carlyle Alva Quinn, born 03 Dec 1894 in Peterborough, Ontario, Canada. He was kind enough to marry another individual with a unique name, Muriel Lucy Montagu(e) Bate. They married 06 Apr 1914 in British Columbia, Canada. He & Muriel are living in Seattle, WA, USA in 1915, and then he joins the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force at Victoria, BC in Dec 1916. He lists Muriel as his wife. Then Carlyle vanishes until his death in 1978 in Los Angeles, CA.

                Meanwhile, Muriel marries Henry Clark Davis in 1920, has son Donald J Davis born 22 Jan 1915 (raised eyebrows), and dies in San Francisco, CA in 1957, the widow of an eminent physician.

                With the unusual names and consistent dates of birth (if not years), the two are fairly easy to track. But what happened between Muriel & Carlyle? It would appear the war intervened but am I missing something else obvious? I haven't had to search for a divorce before so any suggestions or ideas would be welcome.
                so, do you think that Muriel was pregnant with Carlyles child then? but Henry took him on as his own?

                did the 7 year ruling apply to marriage/remarriage in Canada? [if so, is looking more like divorce, as 1914-1920 = 6yrs] and not 7 to be declared 'single' in order to marry again.
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

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                  #9
                  ooher..

                  Name: Carlyle A Quinn
                  Spouse: Helen Kileman
                  Marriage Date: 8 Jun 1923
                  Marriage Place: King
                  Reference Number: kingcoarchmc86596

                  http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin...&rhSource=6095

                  the image is there to see, if you would like it, please send me a PM and i'll get it for you.
                  Julie
                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                  .......I find dead people

                  Comment


                    #10
                    it looks like they married in Kings, Seattle, Washington.. The image clearly states KOLEMAN as her MN, so perhaps a correction will be needed.
                    Julie
                    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                    .......I find dead people

                    Comment


                      #11
                      now this is something quite odd.......

                      Carlyle A Quinn marries again!.. in 1920!.. to Irma L FLYNN.. 24th Dec 1920 King, Seattle, Washington..

                      what do you think?? same signature?

                      24 Dec 1920


                      08 June 1923
                      Julie
                      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                      .......I find dead people

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Carlyle is a distant connection so I'm not going to pursue this too seriously, but he has certainly got my curiosity up. (The Quinn's married into the Shearer family for those who know of my frustration with that family.)

                        Helen Kileman is Helen Koleman; it's a transcription error. Yes, I can see the original doc. I'd found the marriage to Irma Flynn too. It certainly seems to be the same fellow who married Helen Koleman as the signatures are the same guy. I've no signature to compare to the marriage to Muriel.

                        I can't find much on Irma, but did find one Ancestry tree that suggested she died three years after they married, or the same year he married Helen.

                        I'm not familiar with the seven-year rule. What is it?

                        I don't know what to think about the son, Donald. My first thought was that he is Davis' son, and hence the divorce/separation from Carlyle, but I have no idea. And I wonder why Helen divorced him?

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Prairie Chicken View Post

                          I'm not familiar with the seven-year rule. What is it?
                          this might help:

                          Unintentional abandonment is not desertion. For example, if a man is missing in action while serving in the Armed Services, his wife may not obtain a divorce on desertion grounds since her spouse did not intend to leave his family and flee the marital relationship. The Common Law allows an individual to presume that a spouse is dead if the spouse is unexplainably absent for a seven-year period. If the spouse returns at any time, the marriage remains intact under common law.
                          http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/desertion

                          not sure if it still applies.. but this is what I was talking about.
                          Julie
                          They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                          .......I find dead people

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Thanks DS. I hadn't heard of that.

                            I spent yesterday afternoon searching for Carlyle. This guy seriously disappeared after the marriage to Helen until his death. I can find no sign of him in either country. I would have thought he'd have shown up in the '30 or '40 census, or military, but no. Odd grouping, but it looks like I may not figure out what was going on.

                            By the way, I compared the two American marriage signatures to Carlyle's signature when joining the Canadian expeditionary forces and it looks to be the same guy.
                            Last edited by Prairie Chicken; 19-02-13, 11:34.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Did you spot the findagrave:
                              http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...GRid=85492641&

                              Just tried manually searching the LA Times on ancestry - but it's worse than the Chicago Trib: the obits don't seem to be in chronological order. Maybe post on ancestry's la boards and see if someone can find his obit from the Times or another local paper? Maybe the San Diego research offer has library access to LA papers?
                              ------------------------------------------------------
                              My Families
                              London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

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                                #16
                                Yes, thanks, I did find the findagrave, and had requested a photo of the headstone in case it is helpful. I'd missed the plot reference though
                                Plot: Col. of the Patriots, F.M., Lot 0, Space 34948
                                . I wonder what the reference to the Patriots is? I'll keep at it.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I just got a photo of Carlyle's headstone; many thanks to the volunteers at Find A Grave. It includes Mary Abernethy 1971. So Carlyle had another lady in his life ....

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Did you see this website that KyleJustin supplied another thread? It's great!
                                    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/w2w/washington.htm
                                    ------------------------------------------------------
                                    My Families
                                    London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

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