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  • Olde Crone Holden
    replied
    Bee

    I remember my own sense of outrage when I first heard about this.

    However - my dead ancestors were either deeply religious or they weren't, and they will get the chance to decline a Mormon baptism on Judgement Day, if they so wish, so it's up to them to feel outraged (or not), not me!

    Also - expediency here - I could not, in all conscience, make such free use of the LDS if I felt affronted by their religious practices!

    OC

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  • Bee
    replied
    Thanks for your measured responses to my post on this thread. I did wonder, on reflection, if my comment had been a bit too inflamatory - that's the problem with posting at 2am!

    But the more I read - and thanks for the link, Libby - the clearer my own thoughts are on the subject. So I don't think I'll be changing my views - at least, not this time.

    But what an intersting subject! And how refreshing that we can hold widely diverse views, and not come to blows over them! :)

    Bee.

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  • Janet
    replied
    People might like to know a few of the following facts for future reference with regard to the Catholic Faith:

    1536 Reformation and the laws of the country restricted RC's from worshipping as they wished.

    1681 Last Catholic was Executed

    1778 Law on Catholic Worship changed and Catholics were then allowed to practice in public.

    1791 Catholics were allowed to vote.

    1829 Catholic Emancipation and Catholics were allowed to become MP's

    Janet

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  • Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Bee View Post
    I've just read this thread through, and my mind is boggling even more than usual! eg - How do the Mormons give a choice to the dead about being 'rebaptised'??

    I don't want to upset anyone's beliefs, and maybe this sounds irreverent, but surely God would be more concerned about what someone's intention were during their lives - whether they were 'good' people or 'repented' their 'sins' - than which particular door they went through on their way to whatever lies beyond death? Unless He is , as some seem to believe, just a small-minded bigot who would reject anyone who, despite having a pure heart, had been indoctorinated by the 'wrong' group!

    Bee.
    It stems from their belief that life goes on after death.

    Look at it this way.
    A person grows up living in a little English village with the only contact to religion being the Church of England.
    On becoming an adult they travel the world and find many other religions and decide that they would rather worship as a Roman Catholic, Buddist or some other faith.

    The LDS Church (and other religions) believe "life" carries on after the death of the physical body.
    Cheers
    Guy

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  • Harrys mum
    replied
    Bee, try this link.

    Article on Mormon Baptism for the Dead


    I have had no real problem finding Catholic records as long as you know the place. I just find the main church by googling and email. I've had some wonderful responses to my emails with extra info given and anecdotal stories at times.

    According to my Catholic Arcbishop the church has a problem with releasing their records to the LDS due to the reason they want them, not from any problem with genealogy.

    I have a friend who is a Mormon bishop (I know, I have a very varied group of friends) and he has told me that the records the church keep (FamilySearch) were never meant for general viewing but for their records. They are encouraged to find their relatives for the purpose of re-uniting with them after death. All they really need for that is a name. So you will get some mistakes.

    Of course the extracted copies should be correct, but you have to depend on the transcription as well as the original.

    I have a Margaret Warrender in a tree who is certainly that in the register, but is actually Margaret Gordon, and my Elizabeth Hinkley who is Elizabeth Kirkby. Both are extracted, one is a mistranscription, the other is written incorrectly and the vicar (or whoever wrote the original) has just copied the name above accidentally.

    That is why, where possible, I rely on wills.

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  • Bee
    replied
    I've just read this thread through, and my mind is boggling even more than usual! eg - How do the Mormons give a choice to the dead about being 'rebaptised'??

    I don't want to upset anyone's beliefs, and maybe this sounds irreverent, but surely God would be more concerned about what someone's intention were during their lives - whether they were 'good' people or 'repented' their 'sins' - than which particular door they went through on their way to whatever lies beyond death? Unless He is , as some seem to believe, just a small-minded bigot who would reject anyone who, despite having a pure heart, had been indoctorinated by the 'wrong' group!

    Bee.

    Leave a comment:


  • kathsgirl.48
    replied
    I've obtaind quite a few of my Irish ancestors' birth certificates after finding their birth, not Baptism.... listed on the IGI records..extracted from records in the locality.

    Obviously... they must have come from the local records office and birth records do not state whether they are catholic or not.

    It just happens that my ancestors were catholics.

    So don't give up on checking the IGI records!

    Leave a comment:


  • Guy
    replied
    One needs to think of this very carefully rather than give a knee jerk reaction.
    First the "Mormons" do not baptise posthumously but they do offer the chance to those that are already dead.

    If there is life after death then those already dead are in the best possible place to judge whether their decisions on earth were correct or wrong.
    If correct then surely they would refuse the offer. If wrong then perhaps the offer would be accepted.
    If there is no life after death it does not matter a jot.

    To me the fuss the Catholic Church are making shows they are not quite as confident in their teachings as they should be, perhaps more faith is required.
    Cheers
    Guy

    Leave a comment:


  • Janet
    replied
    OC and Mary,

    I have to say I was very surprised when I read this, and my first thoughts were, we all know that, so why tell us again! However, finding the Pope on the Mormon list may have made them think that if Catholics found that the previous pope was on the Mormon list, that it was OK for catholics to think they could be baptised posthumously? As far as I am concerned you can only be baptised the once, although if you want to change your own religion whilst alive and I suppose be baptised in your new religion, there is nothing to stop you doing so, but not posthumously. I had to smile when I only found one of my great grandfathers nine children on the IGI. Why were the other eight not on there?? The one that is on there remained staunch catholic to the end, and would indeed turn in his grave if he knew he had been adopted by the LDS and posthumously baptised into their church. The mind boggles!!!

    Janet

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    They rebaptised the Pope? What a cheek!

    Poor man must be spinning like a top in his grave...

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  • Olde Crone Holden
    replied
    I am sure that, from a theological point of view, you can only be baptised ONCE - and it is this first baptism which "takes", not any subsequent baptism, so I am surprised that the Vatican takes this stance.

    OC

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  • Janet
    replied
    The following statement is taken from 10 May 2008 "Tablet", a catholic newspaper.

    "Two weeks after representatives of the LDS received an unprecedented invitation to an ecumenical gathering with Pope Benedict, the Vatican has instructed all bishops to deny Mormons access to Catholic Baptismal records, as they might be seeking them to perform posthumous rites" writes Rocco Palmo.

    First reported by Catholic News Service, the letter from the Congregation of the Clergy was dated prior to the Pope's US visit last month, but only emerged after his return to Rome. In it the Congregation for the Clergy insisted that Parish Registers be withheld from the Mormon Genealogical society of Utah. Potentially useful for providing names for "proxy" baptisms for the daed, which the LDS believes, earn Mormons enhanced standing in the hereafter. The 14 million member church's ancestral research amounts to one of the worlds most comprenhensive collections of Family Histories.

    While Catholics and Mormons have traditionally enjoyed good relations in the LDS home base of Utah, the US Bishops' leading ecumenist Fr James Massa, said that the letter was written to make very clear that "posthumous baptisms are unnacceptable from the standpoint of catholic truth." Although the proxy baptisms are often assumed to be of non mormon relatives of the LDS church reports on the Church's International Genealogy Index have discovered that its record include figures such as Mao Zedong, Stalin and Pope John Paul 2 "

    Janet
    Last edited by Janet; 19-05-08, 11:21.

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  • Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    Guy

    I have to disagree with you here.

    There is no confusion in my mind as to what the IGI consists of (sorry, bad grammar).

    It consists of EXTRACTED or SUBMITTED records. EXTRACTED records are almost always taken from filmed original records (with a few confusing exceptions).
    Unfortunately this is where you start to go wrong.
    Extracted records may be from parish registers, or they may be mass extractions of other sources such as transcribed records.

    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    SUBMITTED records are a free for all and can consist of anything from absolutely accurate, to complete fabrication. I never use submitted records, unless I can firm them up with extracted records, either from the IGI or an independant primary source.
    This is where another mis-understanding of the IGI arises.
    You seem to think the IGI is only accurate if it records an entry in a parish register but that is a mis-use of the IGI it only records details that were given in the Temple Submission.
    Many people find this hard to understand.

    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    I have no idea whether EXTRACTED records are ALL submitted to Temple for ordinance, but that is neither here nor there....the camera does not lie, and if I look at a filmed copy of the original register then that is as good as it will ever get.
    Yes all entries on the IGI have been submitted to one of the three Temple Ordinances (Baptism, Endowment or Sealing).

    I very much preferred it when the IGI was called the Computer File as the IGI gives the wrong impression to people.
    As you say a filmed copy of a register gives an accurate record of the ancient record, however the IGI does not record that ancient record it records the more modern LDS Temple Ordinance, which is what has to be remembered


    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    Of course, the primary PURPOSE of the IGI is for Temple Ordinance, religious purposes, in other words, and we are, as Richard points out, lucky to be able to use this fantastic resource freely, but with caution.

    By the by...anyone other than me think it highly amusing that NON members of the LDS church cannot access LDS official records???

    OC
    I don't know what you mean by that, I am not LDS but have on occassions been given access to LDS official records, one just has to ask and a decision is made based on the reasons.
    Cheers
    Guy

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  • Olde Crone Holden
    replied
    Mary

    I honestly don't know, but wonder if these are "personal extractions", i.e., someone sitting in the records office and extracting information which interests them - I have done this myself, but never submitted such lists to the IGI!

    OC

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    I've just come across a couple of batches beginning with I - anyone know what these are? It doesn't say whether they're submitted or extracted, and they're not on the Hugh Wallis site.

    Leave a comment:


  • Olde Crone Holden
    replied
    Guy

    I have to disagree with you here.

    There is no confusion in my mind as to what the IGI consists of (sorry, bad grammar).

    It consists of EXTRACTED or SUBMITTED records. EXTRACTED records are almost always taken from filmed original records (with a few confusing exceptions).

    SUBMITTED records are a free for all and can consist of anything from absolutely accurate, to complete fabrication. I never use submitted records, unless I can firm them up with extracted records, either from the IGI or an independant primary source.

    I have no idea whether EXTRACTED records are ALL submitted to Temple for ordinance, but that is neither here nor there....the camera does not lie, and if I look at a filmed copy of the original register then that is as good as it will ever get.

    Of course, the primary PURPOSE of the IGI is for Temple Ordinance, religious purposes, in other words, and we are, as Richard points out, lucky to be able to use this fantastic resource freely, but with caution.

    By the by...anyone other than me think it highly amusing that NON members of the LDS church cannot access LDS official records???

    OC

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  • Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Little Nell View Post
    Um, OC, on a technical point...

    If the records are at TNA or as it was PRO, don't they own the copyright? could they not have given permission to LDS, regardless of Catholic church, or am I talking nonsense as usual?
    No ownership of a record or document does not convey ownership of the copyright on that record or document. The copyright is owned by the original author or to anyone he/she has assigned the copyright to.
    Cheers
    Guy

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  • Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    Yes, some did slip through the net, but not many.

    SOMEONE, however, did some clandestine filming at the Records Office and others did transcripts from registers deposited at the Records Office in error!

    Do be careful to track the exact source on the IGI - some of these so-called extracts are not, they are transcripts.

    OC
    There seems to be confusion as to what the IGI is it is an index to the temple ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, nothing more nothing less.

    As such it is 100% accurate.

    The IGI has been compiled from two sources Patron submissions (entries submitted by individuals) or mass extractions.
    Mass extractions may originate from Parish Registers usually starting with the letter C or P for births or christenings ; J, K or M for marriages (excluding those starting M1). As a rule of thumb those starting with numbers such as 725.. 745.. and 754.. (i.e. the third digit being 4 or higher) are extractions from transcribed indexes such as Gibson's Oxfordshire marriages.

    Remember the IGI only records what was presented at the Temple Ordinance not what any other record shows.
    Cheers
    Guy

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  • Olde Crone Holden
    replied
    Richard

    I have heard similar stories!

    I agree that every LDS member I have met has been a model of politeness and rectitude, but I am amused by the constant gentle reminder that "it would be nice if you deposited a copy of your research with us" every time I visit my LDS centre - which is very frequently!

    OC

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  • Richard
    replied
    "The fact that some Catholic records have been filmed/transcribed by the LDS is down to luck or subterfuge, I think."

    I'm not going to name names, and will be very careful not to say anything potentially libelous here, but a certain researcher who put years of effort and his own time and money into transcribing records of the French London Huguenot churches, told me they went to absolutely ridiculous lengths to get hold of his records, some of them bordering on the bizarre. His experience of them and their 'methods' and determination bordering on obsession, to obtain data when they decide they want it, left him from someone indiferent to them, to totally anti as a result.

    To balance that though, every LDS church member I have personally ever met was the model of politeness, and the IGI is undoubtedly a fantastic resource for us family history types, that I've used extensively and am greatful for, whatever it's purpose, but from what I was told..well just glad I don't have info they 'want'!

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