Emigration England --> Canada

[brianofcava]

Yes! Very sorry about that. There was such a flurry of unexpected activity that my old brain couldn't cope, I think. I'm very happy to have found Annie and Violet at least aboard the vessel (of which there is a partial history available online, with pics, which is nice). I don't think I've yet found them in Canada, but that cam come later.

Annie would have been my father's great-aunt, after whose late husband he was named: Alfred Albert. The husband's brother also died just a few months later, both in their twenties, leaving an only son - probably the black sheep of the family - who would become my g-grandfather. Hence my particular interest in this ancestral line that is slightly off to one side.

Again, many thanks - and maybe in the future I'll read more carefully!
Brian.

[Mary from Italy]

Lauren, I've just found Annie and Violet on the 1911 census, mis-transcribed in the summary as Mills - as usual.

You missed post #2 on this thread, did you?

[brianofcava]

Annie and Violet at sea!

Annie & Violet - 1913.pdf

On the outgoing passenger lists in 1939 there is an Annie MILES born 1880 travelling with Violet MILES born 1906 to Canada. Could this be them?

I've now found them, Lauren. Named as Mills on the Cymric in 1913 heading for Halifax and then Montreal - apparently. Thanks for the original pointer. (Image attached)
Annie's occupation as Fruiterer is consistent with her occupation on the 1911 census, taken over from her late husband.
Regards, B.

[LaurenS1990]

Hi Brian

Glad to have helped :-)

They are the outgoing passenger lists on Find My Past

[brianofcava]

Lauren, I've just found Annie and Violet on the 1911 census, mis-transcribed in the summary as Mills - as usual. How did you find the passenger lists (I'm new to those, and although I've seen them before, I cannot now find them...)?. Brian.

[brianofcava]

Do you know roughly when your great-grandmother was born? Where did the information about her being a nobildonna come from? Her children's birth records?

I've read all your responses, Mary, for which many thanks. Much more than I expected, with lots of indicators as to where I can go to from here. It will take time for me to note them all down, but meantime I ought to answer this one point - what do we know about Rosa?

Rita Taglè, who is an authority on all things cavesi, produced for me (among other little gems) a list of five Genoinos, at the end of which appears: Genoino Rosa, morta il 13 agouti 1921, a 76 anni, era nata a Napoli; era vedova di Gaetano de Filippis. I suoi genitori erano Michele Genoino e Fortunata Benincasa. The Gaetano de F here was my g-grandfather, and this note indicate a birth year for Rosa as about 1845.

Elsewhere - and I think that it was in Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana - Rosa is listed as N.D. di Napoli in the correct context.

Your notes to me make it very clear that I must find all the various Atti (di nascita, matrimonio e morte) next time we go to Cava. But when the family there wants to take up all our time, it's a bit difficult! Now I must spend the rest of the day chasing up the leads from yourself and Lauren S...

By the way, a comprehensive source of biographical notes on people from Cava de' Tirreni is a poem by Alfonso De Sio, La Divina Commedia Cavaiola, of which I wrote a review on Amazon. The notes are by Arturo Infranzi. There is also another book, Incontri (Attilio Della Porta), which gives about 100 potted biographies of notable Cavesi. A book that I must obtain is actually called Noterelli cavesi, but I have yet to find a copy of it.

Once again, many thanks for your help, all of which I shall follow up,
Brian M.

[brianofcava]

You're brilliant, Lauren S! It looks as if they went much later than I had thought - but that's all down to Chinese Whispers in the family, of course. As soon as I am properly awake this morning I shall follow up your lead - for which, many thanks. I'm using Ancestry now, so I suppose I can perform the same search using Miles as the surname. Millo is often misspelled (Mills and Milo are the most common), but I did not consider Miles. Brian.

[LaurenS1990]

That sounds promising, Lauren, well done. I'd tried Mills, and didn't find them.

I tried that also, but ticked 'include variants' and this was one of the results :-)

[Mary from Italy]

That sounds promising, Lauren, well done. I'd tried Mills, and didn't find them.

[Mary from Italy]

Naples State Archives may well have something for Rosa; I've just had a look at their website, and they hold the Atti dello stato civile 1809-1900 :

http://patrimonio.archiviodistatonapoli.it/xdams-asna/public/application/jsp/hierBrowser.jsp?titolo=anagrafe&db=asnaAnagrafe&hierCount=25&docStart=1&docToggle=1&hierStatus=

Nothing online, so you'd have to go in person.

[LaurenS1990]

On the outgoing passenger lists in 1939 there is an Annie MILES born 1880 travelling with Violet MILES born 1906 to Canada. Could this be them?

[Mary from Italy]

So far as your mother's cousin goes, I would have thought that his birth would have been registered in the Caserta anagrafe, even if he was born in the Royal Palace, as it was a legal requirement. I would try e-mailing them. If they don't bother replying (which Italian town councils don't always, as you may have discovered), let me know, and I'll phone them for you.

e-mail: settore.servizi.demografici@comune.caserta.it

[Mary from Italy]

Do you know roughly when your great-grandmother was born? Where did the information about her being a nobildonna come from? Her children's birth records?

[Mary from Italy]

I'm afraid I'm not really the right person to ask, because I've done hardly any Italian research. All my family are in England and Australia; I have had a go at my OH's tree, as my son was interested, but I haven't got very far with it.
Next time I go to the LDS centre in Vercelli I can ask, but I'm not sure if the volunteer there knows much about such early research.

I suppose you've tried asking on Italian genealogy forums, like http://www.tuttogenealogia.it ?

Anything pre-1860 is likely to be in either the diocesan archives or the State archives for the area, I should think, other than parish records, which are held by local priests, as I'm sure you know. I'll have a quick google to see if I can find anything.

[brianofcava]

Ciao, Mary. How well I remember our treks in the 1950s from Moncenisio through Piemonte and into Liguria where we stayed with our Italian cousins in Genova! And we shall be going again this year, as part of a long trek all the way down to Cava de' Tirreni to make sure that we meet as many of the family as we can in various places - including an old friend in Torino whom I haven't seen for nearly 60 years!

(On reading through this after writing it, I see that it's rather long, for which I apologise. But I'm asking only for pointers to locations where I can find the records. I guess that my Italian will be good enough for such enquiries - even in Neapolitan country! - but I know that I can also call on truly bi-lingual friends/family for assistance if I need it.)

During that trek I shall need to look for two historical sources, in particular - perhaps you can advise me on exact locations - both in the South. My g-grandmother was Rosa Genoino "Nobildonna di Napoli", and I believe that her birth record is in the archives in Naples, recording also her parents, Michele G (b. 28/4/1811) and Fortunata Benincasa. Do you know where these archives would be, or would I need to know exactly the commune or frazione? In particular, Fortunata B is very difficult to track down because the surname is so widespread. Unfortunately, the Genoino family in Cava lost most of their records in the earthquake of 1980, so I am trying to fill this particular gap. The librarian in Cava (the excellent Rita Taglè) told me that Rosa G was probably also married in Naples, as there was no record that she could find in Cava.

The second source that I'd like to find is the birth of my mother's cousin Giuliano de Filippis (1914-1993), whose grandson tells me that Giuliano was born in palazzo Reale in Caserta - "because his father, Ferdinando de Filippis (1883-1960) was on the staff there at the time [1914]". How would I find the records of what was going on in those days? Again, would they be in the archives of La Reggia, or in the public offices of Caserta? The father, "uncle Nando", played a significant role in both World Wars, and eventually became Generale di Finanza Grande Ufficiale, so the story is entirely believable. I wish I had asked uncle Nando about it before he died - but I was only a small boy at the time.

Best wishes,
Brian M.

[Mary from Italy]

Ciao Brian, sono in Piemonte, ormai da trent'anni

[brianofcava]

Thank you, LangleyValeSue and Mary from Italy (cosa fai in Italia, Mary? - e dove sei? Ho parenti (de Filippis) a Genova, anche a Cava de' Tirreni, vicino a Salerno...). You are going through the same process as I did, and unfortunately with the same result! South London addresses for "my" Millos are likely to be wrong, as we remained in the Dalston/Hackney/Haggerston/Islington area pretty consistently. I guess that Annie remarried, possibly changing not only her own surname but Violet's as well. I always think of Violet as a little girl of about 6, but of course she'd be 105 now! The story about Canada might also be wrong... . We found the gravestone for Alfred Albert Millo in Abney Park Cemetery (now closed for burials, but indexed), now full of names for the rest of the family - all very moving when you come to remove the thick overgrowth of ivy from the marble. But I'm rambling now... Thanks again - I'll post if I make any progress.

[Mary from Italy]

Yes, I'd forgotten that, but I did do a general search on Ancestry, and nothing came up.

[LangleyValeSue]

There is a 1916 Canadian census of Alberta, Manitoba & Saskatchewan on Ancestry, but I can't find either Annie or Violet on there.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/DB.aspx?dbid=1556

[Mary from Italy]

Yes, so I think that death is wrong.

Pity that the latest Canadian census online is 1911.