jane mercy von Schiller, Schiller,Tenner

[ajchambers8]

...it looks such a beautiful place... again thank you for sharing with me wolf

[ajchambers8]

wow thanks so much for all that help Wolf, I have been emailing my friend with the info youve given me and he reminded me that Freystadt was somewhere on the old map that we saw in relation to Bulin when we looked a long time ago, he will take a closer look for me at the maps and we'll go through the link you sent as well... I hope we can make some progress, your so kind to be so helpful

[WZowe]

under 675 Jahre Freystadt
ther are some information about Freystadt, the distrikttown (in german - with picture). It was a part of Niederschlesien.

Friedrich Heinrich Tenner or Tanner some persons can be found. It gets heavy "of Schiller" in this area of Germany. The name indicates the German nobility "von". So an entry should be found here. But unfortunately, the word was "of/von(german)" as addition or note wise, often uses. Only the variants of the name Schiller, Schill, Schüller, Schuller etc., then help.
A beautiful pre-Christmas time also wishes you.
Wolf

[ajchambers8]

Hi wzowe.
thank you for that, I know that on one censes 1881 0r 1891, he says Bulin Germany, we thought it to be the small villiage of Bulin which is now of the administrative district of Gmina Kozuchow in western Poland (which now has a tiny population of about 31!) but which used to be part of Germany many years ago, I had not heard of Bullindof, but upon checking it, its Polish/Russian name indeed appears to be Bulin, there isnt much info available on line regarding when it was known as Bulin and if it was part of Germany back then, but I'm never much good with geography!... my friend is the one who looks at all the maps and works that out so I'll get him on that when hes here at the weekend, its very exciting!

On nearly every English document he calls himself 'Fritz', even his death cert, it was only on his daughters cert for marriage that we ever see him as frederick Henry Tenner, your probably right that he would have been friedrich really!

Thank you wzowe,
and seasons greetings to you dear friend x

[WZowe]

Hallo Angela,
Bulin (Poland) = Bullendorf (German) in the area of Freystadt (German)
Wolf

Please use
Friedrich Tenner not frederick Tenner (Danmark)
Fritz is short form from Friedrich

[ajchambers8]

I have tried searching 'schille' instead of von schiller and managed to get a death for janes brothers daughter and a marriage for janes brothers son! so knocking off the 'R' at the end was a useful tip!

I have tried knocking off the 'r' in order to find frederick Henry Tenner, cabinet maker, born Germany abt 1847 on the 1871 census to no avail... he is seldom known by that name in later censuses (I have him on all as janes husband from 1881 and know where they married in 1873) Im convinced he would have been in england in 1871... he is more commonly known as Fritz, which is even on his death cert, but he may have used his proper name early in his time in London.

I manually searched the other 89 pages of district 6 old hoxton town shorditch but he wasnt there!...I can see I am going to end up searching the other districts in the same way and I think there is 25 districts to old hoxton town!

I have also tried the same method to look up my von schillers/schillers on the 1861 census to no avail, so anyone who has any ideas ...well I would be glad to hear them!
It looks like that 1841 census with all the schillers marked 'N K' may possibly be them but in that case the mother isnt there so is still at large!

Its great to have the Mainz link confirmed though, it was down as mayeas on one census but on the 1871 census found by Elaine (gawd bless her heart!) it was down as mayence (the old french spelling), its somewhere very close to the rhine that went in and out of french/german hands quite a bit!

Again thank you to everyone, I'm so greatful, I'll be stuck at this laptop for some time yet I think!

[ajchambers8]

What about this one for the 1871 census
RG10; Piece: 454; Folio: 59; Page: 14
- Ancestry.co.uk

Oh my goodness... I dont know how they got charlotte but I can tell you now its all right! von is even there , run into the end of charlotte (which could have been catherines middle name) the dealer in artists colours is exactly what her husband did before he died ... I had a weird spelling for mayance on aother census it was spelled mayaes... so that is right ad confirms that she was born in mayence... I have tears in my eyes Elaine... I have looked so long Thank you so very much !

Even the sons occupation is correct!

I could hug you !

[Elaine ..Spain]

What about this one for the 1871 census
RG10; Piece: 454; Folio: 59; Page: 14
- Ancestry.co.uk

[ajchambers8]

Hi kyle,
How very interesting!...I've come across the johanne phenomenom myslf on my partners tree, all very confussing, to say nothing of the naming one child after a sibling that died, which could result in two children perhaps only a year apart in age having the same name, when first tackleing our german lots i thought I was going mad!...

I know during ww1 Germans who had been in England for years and years and considered it their home, were hounded out of their homes and buissinesses by people thay had considered friends...it was as you say, tragic, terribly so.

I believe your probably right abot the religious persecution, I have no way of knowing what religious beliefs my lot had, the children who were born here all appear to have either not married or got married in parish churches, Frederick Tenner and Jane were married at st Marys Whitechapel in 1873....I have looked at the 1871 census for whitechapel and gone through it page by page, district by district hoping they may have showed up there two years prior to the marriage... I'm currently searching Shorditch for them now, hoxton new town and will resume on district 16....its a long laboureous process, but I am convinced I will find them eventually if I keep on... I am convinced they will have been wrongly transcribed which is easy enough to do or even not yet transcribed. ...realistically they can be anywhere between Newington and Hackney and I will search them all if I have too!

Getting back into Germany and finding their roots will be the impossibility... we found my partners great grandfather of German origins and have him from 1880's up to his death in 1932... we even found his unmarked paupers grave in a london cemetery and my partner bought the rights to the burail plot as they were about to reuse that area!....its now marked with a plaque.... however for all the amount we know bettween 1880's -1911 we are still trying to find out from 1911- 1932 (where he died in Bow infirmary) and of course his life from 1850-1880s ! ... thats perhaps for anpother trhread, but his name was Peter Christoph Voltmer if you wondered!

Again thanks Kyle and all youre all so helpful xxx

[kylejustin]

germans are annoyingly confusing. one of my families used johann for every boy and johanne for every girl. then used the middle names. they even named the 2 eldest sons the same names, but the 3rd given name is different!

another branch used wilhelmine a lot, even though it was their 3rd of 4th given name.

and another branch became as english as possible, dropping their german heritage when they arrived here in the 1850's. it still caused problems in WWI when an ancestor tried to lead his troops, and they refused because of his german surname! once he explained that every german member of his family had married an english person, and the family was no longer pure german, did they accept him and followed his commands. tragic, isnt it?

i would think your families fled germany because of religious persecution. if they were in england from the early 1840's, then it would be easy to think this. my ancestors left germany in 1842, because the german king tried to unite the various german protestant faiths into one church with himself as the supreme head, ala henry VIII, and the persecution he was using to make the people agree was too much. so they emmigrated. but my families had the benefit of farming land here, i dont think yours would have had the same luxury in london!

[ajchambers8]

The whole German line can be terribly difficult, if you try and get to find them back in Germany its a nightmare! I was able to get my friends German line back to wurttemburg germany with the latter day saints pages, but alas no go for any of mine!...I dont know how jane would have been transcribed as Isobella... there is no indication of her ever using that name or of it being part of her name...gawd knows!

I think that if anyone finds my von Schillers/Schillers, we'll find they have been transcribed wrongly which will have been the problem!...I have had problems with that elsewhere!

Also if anyone was wondering, I do not believe my tree connected to the Frederick von Schiller, his title and use of 'von' was bestowed upon him by the German king of the time a few years before he died and was not by birth... I have no proof that my Frederick Otto von Schiller was entiled to the 'von' at birth but it is unlikely that as a dealer in artists colours and traveller he would have had it bestowed upon him by merit, due to the huge age difference between him and catherine, I do wonder if it had been an arranged marriage, possibly a 2nd one for him, which would be a possibility if they had been of noble decent back in their home land...due to all the civil wars etc at the time it may be a viable fact that they fled to England.

Any German experts out there?... maybe you can give me better insight for which I would be greatful....if you even try and search fredrick otto von Schiller, the more famous chap shows up!

[dicole]

Do you think Isobella and Jane could be the same person, could the Isobella have been copied down wrongly from somewhere else ?

There are a couple of people missing from my families in different censuses - one in 1871 Brighton, Alice Martin age 8 is missing from being with her grandmother, mother, brother and sister, I cannot find her anywhere, except a possible Alice Murton at school somewhere, wihich seems terribly unlikely.

And Edmund Tanner - in 1871 in the middle of the Tanner family of Speldhurst Kent, is stuck Betsy Bright, age 40, visitor, where Edmund Tanner, age 10 belongs.

I think in both cases, the enumerator has made a mistake, skipping Alice and for some reason putting Betsy in the middle of the Tanners, a most unusual place for visitors.

I will have another look for Jane Schiller now.

Our Rowohl family all had at least three christian names and hardly ever used the first one - and all the girls had Emilia or Amelia or Emma in their names, just to be confusing - Dad Ferdinand came from Germany, married in Portsmouth and the children were born in Chorlton upon Medlock Lancs.Made the 1841 census, luckily, then migrated to Sydney via Melbourne.

Di

[ajchambers8]

What is odd is that there is not only catherine, but also all the children...especially Jane, there is no mention of her ever having Isobella as a name and I have her birth cert, so I just dont understand where she was on the 1851... or where she was between birth and marriage!....I have driven myself in circles so may times!

I do not believe Catherine ever remarried she certainly spent her final years living with daughter Jane and her husband Fritz, as did two of her daughters, janes sisters ada annie and marie/mary...I think both were spinsters and that mary went blind....they all lived at 25 Dagmar rd in hackney.....

janes brother, also frederick von Schiller died around 1891, his son and names sake (ftrederick otto von Schiller) was a boy sailor who went to sea as a child the year his father died aged about 10 or 11...they would sent young boys to train if they were found begging and it was thought their parents couldnt support them, or to keep them out of trouble if they were that way inclined!... I know he would up in navel hospital in Kent in 1901 when he was 21 as hes on that census...I have a service history for him too, but think he likely dropped the 'von' at some point near ww1 , though I believe by then he was stationed on land training young boy cadets himself!

[ajchambers8]

ahh thank you Diane, its most intruiging, I know the 1841 census gives the least details of the lot, perhaps they were new to the uk and didnt speak much english... its strange no mention of germany, I should perhaps add, to make matters worsse there is a frederick Schiller married to a caroline who crops up now and then, I cant find a link between his and mine, but who knows!.... I hall keep a note of this record and thank you xxx so kind

[dicole]

For the Von Schillers in 1841, there is this rather obscure entry in St Giles in the Fields, which might be them:

Class: HO107; Piece 673; Book: 1; Civil Parish: St Giles in The Fields; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 1; Folio: 22; Page: 36; Line: 19

King St

AUSTEN John age u/k occ Thane Platt ??? born Middlesex
AUSTEN Anne age u/k straw bonnet maker born Middlesex
SCHILLER Fred age unknown, Ind, born middlesex
SCHILLER U age u/k in female column, born middlesex
SCHILLER Child unknown (age u/k in male column) born middlesex
SCHILLER Child unknown (age u/k in female column) born middlesex

and a lot of following entries, age u/k "child" only instead of name.

I would not rely on the "born Middlesex" bit, there seems to be very little detail in these entries.

Di

[ajchambers8]

well your such a real star for doing so... I appreciate it so much, a fresh pair of eyes may be able to spot something, my fingers are crossed !

[Elaine ..Spain]

I´ve been looking but haven´t come up with anything yet. :F

[ajchambers8]

Thanks...well I hope someone might have some ideas, just to clarify I have the censes from 1881 onwards it is the others I am looking for....Thanks again Elaine and everyone youve all been great

[Elaine ..Spain]

No problem.

[ajchambers8]

Ah my apologies! I wasnt aware, thanks for picking up on it and setting me straight!