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jane mercy von Schiller, Schiller,Tenner

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    jane mercy von Schiller, Schiller,Tenner

    Hi there, I am looking for some help with this line, its a bit complicated and there is a sad story with it.
    Another set of Great great grandparents, Jane Mercy von Schiller born 1850 and Frederick Henry Tenner (often documented as simply Fritz Tenner) born abt 1846 Bulin Germany (now part of Poland)...they married 13 april 1873 st marys parish church whitechapel (I have the cert) janes father Frederick Otto von Schiller, dealer in artists colours and traveller had died by then born abt 1773 died 1849, I will tell you more about that as there in lay a sad tale!... Fritz's father was also dead by this point and had been Heinrich Tenner.

    starting with my great great grandmother, these are the facts I have certs for these
    Jane mercy Von Schiller
    16 jan 1850
    in 11 president st east , St Lukes, London, England
    Death 15 Aug 1928
    in Hackney Hospital

    Now the first census I have Jane on is the 1881 census after she has married fritz....I manually searched the 1851 census for the addresss jane was born in as it was a year later, I found the family the mother Catherine Offental or Ottental born in Germany, was a boarding house keeper, and widow... her husband (who was exteremly older than her) had died a few months prior to Janes birth of cholora, two weeks after he died, janes brother also died...they died in Hill street Newington surrey and were all buried in st Peters walworth.... the graves since moved to brookfield cememtery.

    There had also been twins that died ... janes mother buried a lot of babies sadly, and it must have been hard for a woman who was a german imigrant to have survived in the hard world of Londons east end in the mid 1800's... but this courageous woman did prevail... dying in her daughters house many many years later.

    On the 1851 census, there is one puzzle to be solved... there is a child with janes birth year of 1850 but it isnt Jane, it is a child Isobel, who can not be found anywhere before or since 1851....jane is not there, and given her long rather distinctive name it does appear odd she isnt there as here other siblings certainly are.... the eldest child on that 1851 censes is
    Ada Annie C Von Schiller Birth 1839 Middlesex, which wold indicate that the family would be in england on the 1841 census...I can not find them...
    nor can they be found on the 1861, 1871 census....

    where can they be? is worth mentioning that they use the 'von' part of their name on and off as and when they seem to feel like it which doesnt help!...nor does the german naming system, their first names seem to interchange all over the place....

    ...and Fritz....frederick henry Tenner born abt 1846 in Germany, where can he be hiding?...his first appearance seems to be the marriage cert too... he is a cabinet maker, which he remains as all his life, he dies in Hackney Union (hackney hospital) in 1917 of stomach cancer....

    I am satisfied I now have Fritz and Janes childrens names correct, I was helped by the baptism records that exist for their first 3 children which yeiled addresses.

    I know I will never know about why they came to england there is a theory that they fled their home land and had been monied at some point, but I guess everyone has a similar tale on their tree somewhere!...I would love to find out anything I can... I do not even know when the von Schillers married, nor where they long they had been here etc

    If you can help fill in some missing years for me you would be doing me a huge favour which I would appreciate immensely.

    Angela xxx

    Do you have the reference for the 1851 census?


      hi,,i have frederick in the 1891/1901 and 1911 censuses...on the 1891 census it states he was born BERLIN,,,not bulin ?


        Originally posted by gortonboy View Post
        hi,,i have frederick in the 1891/1901 and 1911 censuses...on the 1891 census it states he was born BERLIN,,,not bulin ?
        We thought it said Berlin at first... are you sure it is Berlin ? we had found a place that is now part of Poland called Bulin

        I have the censuses from 1881 onwards, but thanks so much for looking!


          Originally posted by Elaine ..Spain View Post
          Do you have the reference for the 1851 census?
          the image, poor as it is, is located here

          If that will come up!.... I did look at the following page but there was the start of another household, catherines didnt continue


            Originally posted by ajchambers8 View Post
            ... the eldest child on that 1851 censes is
            Ada Annie C Von Schiller Birth 1839 Middlesex, which wold indicate that the family would be in england on the 1841 census...
            Where have you got this name from as the eldest child on the 1851 census appears to be Anna von Schiller born 1840 Long Acre
            Do you have any birth or baptism records - if so is there an address?


              She comes up on the 1881 census
              1881 England Census
              Ann Schiller born c1842 St James, Middlesex
              Relation to head of household - Sister in Law
              Street Address: 25 Dagmar R oad

              The 1891 census
              Annie Schiller b c1841 -City, London
              Relation to head of household - Sister-in-law
              living in Stratford Le Bow St Mary

              The death is
              England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index: 1837-1915
              Annie C A A C Von Schiller
              1896 3rd quarter
              Age at Death - 57
              Hackney - vol 1b, page 356

              Im not entirely sure where I got 1839, I am sure it was on a document though


                oops the year is on the death entry


                  Also the german naming system was odd, first names were often not the name they went by they often swapped round first and second names


                    Angela - just to let you know I have edited your information on post #7 . We do not allow members to copy and paste from sites such as Ancestry as it is a breach of copyright.
                    You need to do a transcription of the facts - similar to what I have done above.


                      Ah my apologies! I wasnt aware, thanks for picking up on it and setting me straight!


                        No problem.


                          Thanks...well I hope someone might have some ideas, just to clarify I have the censes from 1881 onwards it is the others I am looking for....Thanks again Elaine and everyone youve all been great


                            I´ve been looking but haven´t come up with anything yet. :F


                              well your such a real star for doing so... I appreciate it so much, a fresh pair of eyes may be able to spot something, my fingers are crossed !


                                For the Von Schillers in 1841, there is this rather obscure entry in St Giles in the Fields, which might be them:

                                Class: HO107; Piece 673; Book: 1; Civil Parish: St Giles in The Fields; County: Middlesex; Enumeration District: 1; Folio: 22; Page: 36; Line: 19

                                King St

                                AUSTEN John age u/k occ Thane Platt ??? born Middlesex
                                AUSTEN Anne age u/k straw bonnet maker born Middlesex
                                SCHILLER Fred age unknown, Ind, born middlesex
                                SCHILLER U age u/k in female column, born middlesex
                                SCHILLER Child unknown (age u/k in male column) born middlesex
                                SCHILLER Child unknown (age u/k in female column) born middlesex

                                and a lot of following entries, age u/k "child" only instead of name.

                                I would not rely on the "born Middlesex" bit, there seems to be very little detail in these entries.

                                Sydney Australia
                                Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson


                                  ahh thank you Diane, its most intruiging, I know the 1841 census gives the least details of the lot, perhaps they were new to the uk and didnt speak much english... its strange no mention of germany, I should perhaps add, to make matters worsse there is a frederick Schiller married to a caroline who crops up now and then, I cant find a link between his and mine, but who knows!.... I hall keep a note of this record and thank you xxx so kind


                                    What is odd is that there is not only catherine, but also all the children...especially Jane, there is no mention of her ever having Isobella as a name and I have her birth cert, so I just dont understand where she was on the 1851... or where she was between birth and marriage!....I have driven myself in circles so may times!

                                    I do not believe Catherine ever remarried she certainly spent her final years living with daughter Jane and her husband Fritz, as did two of her daughters, janes sisters ada annie and marie/mary...I think both were spinsters and that mary went blind....they all lived at 25 Dagmar rd in hackney.....

                                    janes brother, also frederick von Schiller died around 1891, his son and names sake (ftrederick otto von Schiller) was a boy sailor who went to sea as a child the year his father died aged about 10 or 11...they would sent young boys to train if they were found begging and it was thought their parents couldnt support them, or to keep them out of trouble if they were that way inclined!... I know he would up in navel hospital in Kent in 1901 when he was 21 as hes on that census...I have a service history for him too, but think he likely dropped the 'von' at some point near ww1 , though I believe by then he was stationed on land training young boy cadets himself!


                                      Do you think Isobella and Jane could be the same person, could the Isobella have been copied down wrongly from somewhere else ?

                                      There are a couple of people missing from my families in different censuses - one in 1871 Brighton, Alice Martin age 8 is missing from being with her grandmother, mother, brother and sister, I cannot find her anywhere, except a possible Alice Murton at school somewhere, wihich seems terribly unlikely.

                                      And Edmund Tanner - in 1871 in the middle of the Tanner family of Speldhurst Kent, is stuck Betsy Bright, age 40, visitor, where Edmund Tanner, age 10 belongs.

                                      I think in both cases, the enumerator has made a mistake, skipping Alice and for some reason putting Betsy in the middle of the Tanners, a most unusual place for visitors.

                                      I will have another look for Jane Schiller now.

                                      Our Rowohl family all had at least three christian names and hardly ever used the first one - and all the girls had Emilia or Amelia or Emma in their names, just to be confusing - Dad Ferdinand came from Germany, married in Portsmouth and the children were born in Chorlton upon Medlock Lancs.Made the 1841 census, luckily, then migrated to Sydney via Melbourne.

                                      Sydney Australia
                                      Avatar: Reuben Edward Page and Lilly Mary Anne Dawson


                                        The whole German line can be terribly difficult, if you try and get to find them back in Germany its a nightmare! I was able to get my friends German line back to wurttemburg germany with the latter day saints pages, but alas no go for any of mine!...I dont know how jane would have been transcribed as Isobella... there is no indication of her ever using that name or of it being part of her name...gawd knows!

                                        I think that if anyone finds my von Schillers/Schillers, we'll find they have been transcribed wrongly which will have been the problem!...I have had problems with that elsewhere!

                                        Also if anyone was wondering, I do not believe my tree connected to the Frederick von Schiller, his title and use of 'von' was bestowed upon him by the German king of the time a few years before he died and was not by birth... I have no proof that my Frederick Otto von Schiller was entiled to the 'von' at birth but it is unlikely that as a dealer in artists colours and traveller he would have had it bestowed upon him by merit, due to the huge age difference between him and catherine, I do wonder if it had been an arranged marriage, possibly a 2nd one for him, which would be a possibility if they had been of noble decent back in their home land...due to all the civil wars etc at the time it may be a viable fact that they fled to England.

                                        Any German experts out there?... maybe you can give me better insight for which I would be greatful....if you even try and search fredrick otto von Schiller, the more famous chap shows up!
                                        Last edited by ajchambers8; 03-12-09, 14:46.