What do you make of this cause of death:

[Little Nell]

I have sent for some death certs for children of my gt x 2 grandfather John Purvey, as 4 of them died in teenager/young adult years and I was curious.
I got one of them today:

24th January 1893, Woodmancote, North Cerney
Florence Purvey, 13 years, daughter of John Purvey, oxman
Cause: Died from shock to the system caused by perforation of the stomach and accelerated by congestion of the lungs.

What could have caused the perforation of the stomach?

[Mark Dudley]

Ulcers from a quick Google ... but be careful on some of the sites - there are some quite gruesome pictures ...

[Little Nell]

Yes, I've seen peptic ulcers can cause perforation - but I thought ulcers were somethiing older people got.

[Olde Crone Holden]

Congestion of the lungs sounds as if he was already ill and therefore perforation of the stomach would be due to an illness (rather than a traumatic injury, say).

Appendicitis? Blockage? Undiagnosed cancer?

Was there a pm?

OC

[Vicky the Viking]

a lad in my class at junior school had an ulcer - he was 10.

He missed so much school because of it that he failed his 11-plus (this was 1960's). He went to the local secondary mod, but transferred into the 6th form at the grammar school, & went on to uni. Not many lads in our area did in those days. Well done Geoff.

[Jennifer Eccles]

It looks like it may have been either peritonitis, or maybe scarlet fever looking at the date. ( sepsis being involved)

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Nell,,, Is there any possibilty that the child had cystic fibrosis??

[Little Nell]

Oh Shaz, I don't know. I know that she died aged 13 and have sent for death certs for 3 of her siblings, who died aged 13 (spooky, have only just realised it was the same age!) and 8 and 18. There was another child who died, but I couldn't stretch my funds so far, and that child died same year as he was born, as well as a son who died aged 19.

I will wait to see what the other death certs I ordered say and then scrape up for the others if it looks like there's something that could be genetic.

I don't know much about cystic fibrosis or when it was first diagnosed.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

I am not sure when it was first diagnosed or what it may have been called previously but I know a little about.... it was another thing I had to study in human biology and I just loved all of the assignments that we did in relation to genetics.

It was the congestion of the lungs that made me think, and the fact that Cystic fibrosis does also affect the digestive system, but whether any of this leads on to perforations of the stomach or not I can't say.

It is strange that they lost quite a few children.
Well not strange as we are all used to discovering deaths of children and infants in our trees but the fact that these children lived until teens... if you know what I mean.... oh I'm probably just waffling again :o

Not very good at this am I.... I do try to be helpful though :D

[Little Nell]

Just to help me get things clear in my head!

My gt x 2 grandfather John Purvey married 3 times and had 15 children.
Wife 1 (my gt x2 grandmother) Elizabeth Emms died 1869
Children
William not traced after possible marriage 1886
Edna Jane died age 13 in 1870
Ann untraced after 1881
Ellen (my gt grandmother died 1906 of heart disease)
Charles untraced after 1901
Thomas died age 19 in 1887

2nd wife Ann Panter died 1883
children
Amelia died age 13 in 1889
Charity – lived to ripe old age
Fanny Louisa untraced after 1901
Sarah Kate untraced after 1901
Ernest died aged 8 in 1883
Florence died age 13 in 1893
George died sometime after 1916

3rd wife Emily Gegg
children
Frederick Ernest born and died 1889
Henry Arthur untraced after 1901

[Anne in Carlisle]

It does seem strange to see several children who die in their teens. As has bee said we are used to seeing children under 5 dying quite often but once past 5 they seem to survive better.

With several marriages, if it did turn out to be something genetic, it points to the father being the carrier. Hmmmm .. I had the impression that mothers were usually carriers of genetic diseases but I'm probably wrong there.

Guess we'd better wiat for the other certs before making any judgments.

Anne

[Little Nell]

I've always been a bit suspicious about this. To lose one wife is a misfortune, to lose 2 looks like carelessness.

As for John being the carrier of whatever it was, Ann Panter came to the marriage with 2 other children both of whom lived past ther youths.

Can't wait for the other certs now!

[BigShaz McCreadie]

It does seem strange to see several children who die in their teens. As has bee said we are used to seeing children under 5 dying quite often but once past 5 they seem to survive better.

With several marriages, if it did turn out to be something genetic, it points to the father being the carrier. Hmmmm .. I had the impression that mothers were usually carriers of genetic diseases but I'm probably wrong there.

Guess we'd better wiat for the other certs before making any judgments.

Anne

Anne,
That is correct with regards sex linked genetic conditions and its the male offspring who can become affected where as the female offspring could possibly become a carrier. This is because the mother will pass on her faulty X chromosome... in the case of a female child (2 X's) the fathers X will carry enough genetic information to compensate but with a male child.... The fathers Y chromosome is lacking the genetic information so no compensation is made and the child inherits the condition.

Cystic Fibrosis is a genetic condition but is not sex linked.
In this case both parents need to be carriers of the faulty gene and both pass on the fault at the same time for any of their offspring to become affected.

Now I'm thinking about, its quite unlikely that John Purvey, if he was a carrier of the gene, could have been unfortunate enough to have married 3 different women who were all carriers too.

[Vicky the Viking]

not that it really helps, but its been estimated that about 1 in 22 caucasians carry the gene for cystic fibrosis. Its thought that having one copy (ie being a carrier) **may** have helped people survive cholera, which is why its so common.

If both parents were carriers, you would expect about a quarter of the children to be affected.

I have a family where they had about 8 children who ALL died in their teens (this is pre-1841, details from the parish records). They lived in an otherwise pretty healthy rural environment, and all died at different times, so it doesn't like like an epidemic or whatever. I suspect it was a genetic condition but so far down the line I've no chance of finding out what it might have been.

I also have had the odd few children dying of some sort of lung congestion that I wonder about... it must have been so easy to attribute it to a bad cold or even TB. The thing with CF, the symptoms CAN be a bit variable, and I suspect that the digestive problems would have seen off a few toddlers as well, usually through symptoms that looked more like malnutrition.

[BigShaz McCreadie]

Thats true Vicky..... stupid me didn't think of the malnutrition part.
The inability to digest vitamins and nutrients probably wouldn't have allowed them to live till teens back then.

It's strange the way one horrible thing can see off another, its the same with sickle cell, people with sickle cell seem to be immune from Malaria.

[Olde Crone Holden]

My 6 x GGM had 19 children only three of whom survived to adulthood. I am descended from the only one who managed to breed successfully.

They all died past the age of 5, but before 15. The Vicar in this parish often remarked when there was an epidemic, but only one of the 16 dead children had a cause of death (Smallpox) and the other children did not appear to die at the time of an epidemic.

The rest of the deaths are a complete mystery and I have long pondered that there was a recessive genetic flaw, as both parents lived to old age, as did all their numerous siblings and their children.

I think the diagnosis of Cystic Fibrosis is a modern one. I don't think the condition was recognised as such in the 1840s...along with many other conditions too, of course.

OC

[Olde Crone Holden]

Shaz

Sickle cell was a genetic development specifically to deal with malaria. In its milder form it allows the sufferer to live long enough to breed, which is all that nature requires of us all.

OC

[BigShaz McCreadie]

I didn't know that OC.... about Sickle Cell.

I have a lovely friend who suffers from Sickle Cell and is often in and out of hospital she gets really quite poorly. Both her parents are West Indian and she was the only one of 6 children to be affected with Sickle Cell.

I have been searching through archiac medical lists to see if I can find anything at all that could point to Cystic Fibrosis.

I'm sure it was discovered in the 1920's or 30's but can't remember. It must have always exisited but children were probably thought to have some form of consumption or something.

[Christine in Herts]

I just googled : "Cystic Fibrosis" + History

and found this Hit:
Cystic Fibrosis History

and this was the secon Hit:
Cystic Fibrosis History

Christine

[Olde Crone Holden]

Shaz

Sickle cell describes the distorted shape of the red (?) blood cells. The malaria organism cannot penetrate this sickleshaped cell, making the carrier immune to malaria.

But because the cells are sickle shaped, they get stuck in the bloodstream instead of flowing naturally, which is what causes the horrible pain and bleeding into the joints.

Sickle cell developed quite independantly in two separate areas of the world - Africa (sickle cell), and the mediterranean countries such as Greece (thalassemia)

OC