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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    I saw that too Mary, unfortunately (or fortunately) those criminal records don't give us a lot to go on do they!!

    I have to admit...these Humbles are not mine. I'm doing my sis in law's tree as I've come to a dead halt with my own and got sick to death with the sight of them!!!

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    What an interesting relative to have!

    I had a look at the criminal records database on Ancestry to see if I could find his dad, and all I found is a John Humble who was convicted at Durham Quarter Sessions on 19 October 1863 of obtaining goods by false pretences and sentenced to 3 months' imprisonment. It doesn't give his age or abode.

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    Yes, he supposedly walked all the way to London with his brother (so the family story goes). By the looks of the 1891 census, the brother was Arthur Humble.

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    I take it this is John W Humble jr?

    Jack Humble - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    Hi Christine,
    I did see that episode of WDYTYA and found it one of the best. Not because Humble's are mine, they are in fact my sister in law's, but i am doing her tree 'cos I'm totally up against a brickwall with my own.
    I promised I'd try and find her link to Kate, before I realised that looking at Humble's in the north east must be like looking for a Dai Jones in Wales!!!!!! LOL

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  • Christine in Herts
    replied
    Originally posted by Sand Dancer View Post
    Thanks Mary.

    His name was John Wilkinson Humble, b.1832 Stockton, Co Durham.
    ...
    Gosh! Are you related to Kate? (Of the recent WDYTYA?)

    Her HUMBLE ancestors came from the NE, tho' they were miners, not farmers. One was an overseer, and bravely shouldered responsibilities for searching and standing by when the beam of the engine broke and blocked the only access to the mineshaft, trapping about 200 men below. A very moving section of the episode. After that tragedy, all mines were required to have at least two access shafts - obvious... with hindsight.

    Christine

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    Thanks Mary.

    His name was John Wilkinson Humble, b.1832 Stockton, Co Durham.
    A farmer, he lived in East Hartburn, Stockton. He married Ann 1856, and they had 9 children, all born Hartburn, Stockton.
    I've got him/them on the 1841, 1851, 1861 & 1871 census'.
    It would appear his wife Ann died Dec 1880, and daughter Annie in Feb 1881.

    1881 Census...his children living at Hartburn Terrace, East Hartburn, Stockton.
    Arthur Humble. head. 23
    Mary E Humble. sister 22.
    John W Humble. brother 18.
    Thomas G Humble. brother 16.
    Fred Humble. brother 13.
    Ada Humble. sister 11.

    I've found some notifications ref. his Bankruptcy from the London Gazette, which appear between March 1881 and July 1881. They give his address as 3 Oxbridge Lane, Hartburn, Stockton.

    I've just had a look at prisons by putting in his initials, but no results there.
    Can't find anything else about him in newspapers, but admit I'm not very experienced at searching newspaper archives.

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    If you want to post his name, we can all have a look for him in 1881.

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    Aah, now I understand...I've now searched the London Gazette and seen several notices ref; the bankruptcy, starting with the first Notice of a general meeting for creditors, through notices asking for creditors debts and claims, winding up with the final payment notice 4 months later.

    I still wonder where my man is during this time!!!!! He doesn't seem very dead to me, I've found no newpaper reports of a suicide. Thought it might have made a good story, the chap ending his life barely 2 weeks after his bankruptcy was declared publicly.

    Ho hum, still looking.

    Thanks all.

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  • Uncle John
    replied
    This is it, roughly. I may have mis-remembered the tereminology - it's some while since I traced one.

    If X is in partnership, there's a statement that the partnership is dissolved. Then there's a statement that X will be declared insolvent. Then X is called for examination. Then creditors are invited to put in claims. And finally the dividend is declared.

    In my best-remembered case, OH's ancestor was in partnership with his b-i-l. Reading between the lines they managed to drink or gamble away the assets of the inherited business. Part way through the bankruptcy process the b-i-l disappears (as far as the Gazette is concerned). He had actually died of syphilis in the County Asylum, leaving ancestor to carry the can on his own.

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    Thanks for that information Mary, very useful.

    Uncle John, I didn't realise there were stages. In that case i've found only the last piece, stating the final dividend payment and when and where it will be paid out.
    Thanks for that information.

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  • Uncle John
    replied
    Originally posted by Sand Dancer View Post
    The piece I found came from the London Gazette. I'll look for more.
    There are usually 3 or 4 stages to a bankruptcy, each of which will be reported in the Gazette. The final stage (payment to creditors) could be several years later. Even today, with a much-streamlined process, the distribution of dividend can be 3 or 4 years later.

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    The Debtors Act 1869 abolished imprisonment for debt, although debtors who had the means to pay their debt, but did not do so, could still be incarcerated for up to six weeks.
    Debtors' prison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    Many years ago there was a debtors' prison - don't think it was still going by the 1880s, but I'm not sure. One relative of mine went bankrupt in 1879, and didn't go to prison as far as I know.
    However, your man could have been in prison for a criminal offence, or in an asylum, in which case initials were often used in the census instead of names.

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    Thanks Christine.
    Thanks Uncle John. The piece I found came from the London Gazette. I'll look for more.

    P.S. Edited...No Mary I haven't, thanks for the suggestion. Did people go to prison for such things as bankruptcy?
    Last edited by Sand Dancer; 22-08-09, 19:50.

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  • Mary from Italy
    replied
    Have you tried searching for him with initials only in 1881 in case he's in prison?

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  • Uncle John
    replied
    All the gory process of the insolvency would be reported in the London Gazette. Their website appears to be poorly at the moment but here is the link:

    London Gazette Home Page

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  • Christine in Herts
    replied
    I think there was an article the magazine in recent months on the topic of emigration. And there are likely to be links and info in the Wiki.

    Christine

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  • Sand Dancer
    replied
    OK, thanks Christine, another idea for me to look into.

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  • Christine in Herts
    replied
    Originally posted by Olde Crone Holden View Post
    Transportation stopped well before 1881, so you can rule that out.

    My next move would be to look for a newspaper report of the suicide, which may help you to determine whether it's the same man.

    OC
    I found that one of my niece's ancestors tried emigration as a way to move forward after mid-C19th bankruptcies. It didn't do much good - he had a very similar problem in Australia! On the other hand, his son ended up as a significant entrepreneur with a foot in both countries.

    Christine

    Leave a comment:

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