The Elusive Matthew Moneypenny b 1809 in Ireland (Northern?)

[MissM]

Hello,

A friend of mine from this group has suggested I post about my Great Great Grandfather on here in the hope someone will be able to help find his origins.

I have been looking for Matthew Moneypenny b 1811 for over 30 years and have found so much information on him from h.is marriage on 2 Aug 1830 in St Nicholas, Liverpool, UK to Elizabeth Cretney. They lived on the Isle of Man for some time and I have plenty of evidence of that, then they moved to Liverpool where he became a policeman and as well as press cuttings about him on duty, I have records of all his children being born and some of their marriage certificates and each census record while he was alive, and obviously his death certificate.

What I've always wanted to know is where he was from in (N) Ireland and who were his family? In all these years I have never been able to find anything about them. I'd really appreciate any help regarding Matthew from before 1830 before I pop my own clogs!

Thanks in anticipation!

Lynne Moneypenny

[teasie]

It might be helpful if you could provide some more specific information, ie the names of his children (in birth order), whether they were baptised CofE or Catholic, what the various census say about his YoB & PoB (is it just 'Ireland'?).

[MissM]

"Names of his children (in birth order), whether they were baptised CofE or Catholic, what the various census say about his YoB & PoB (is it just 'Ireland'?)."

Hi,

Yes of course. I'll give you some more details about the family although I'm only looking for information on Matthew from before 1830 and his family, of course, all came later.

Matthew's age varied in each census but I know his DoB was definitely 1811 (excuse mistake in first post) from his death record in 1872 aged 61. He is recorded on each census as being born in Ireland. Most other Moneypennys I've found are from N Ireland.

His first child was William b 1832 in Liverpool, UK and baptised in St Peter's C of E Church, Liverpool, Lancashire Then Sarah Ann b 1834 in Lezayre, Isle of Man and baptised there, no name of church available
Jane b 1841 in Liverpool UK and baptised in St Peter's C of E Church, Liverpool, Lancashire
Eliza b 1845 in Liverpool UK and baptised in St Peter's C of E Church, Liverpool, Lancashire
Ellen b 1847 in Liverpool UK and baptised in St Peter's C of E Church, Liverpool, Lancashire
Finally my Great Grandfather James b 1852 in Liverpool UK and baptised in St Peter's C of E Church, Liverpool, Lancashire

Please let me know if there's anything else that would help.

Thanks, Lynne

[PhotoFamily]

For those assisting, the Marriage PR image is on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61...96J-W83N?i=206

Witnesses were Margaret Winterbottom and Thomas Winterbottom (I think?). Do you know who they are?

MissM, Elwyn is a member who often provides advice on research in Ireland. He has often observed (to me and to others), that it's not uncommon for someone, born in Ireland in the time period we're talking about, not to have a firm idea of their age/date of birth. My g'g'uncle had quite a variation of his year of birth, based on various records. Even his gravemarker is different than his Death Certificate, and I think neither of those are correct.

And image of Sarah's baptism in 1834 - unfortunately, no father's trade, tho it confirms MMN
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61...3A1%3AXZ5P-J8F

[teasie]

"Names of his children (in birth order), whether they were baptised CofE or Catholic, what the various census say about his YoB & PoB (is it just 'Ireland'?)."
Yes of course. I'll give you some more details about the family although I'm only looking for information on Matthew from before 1830 and his family, of course, all came later.

Matthew's age varied in each census but I know his DoB was definitely 1811 (excuse mistake in first post) from his death record in 1872 aged 61.

Thank you. Perhaps I should have explained that the reason I was asking for this information - especially the children's names - is that they were often named after grandparents. So if Elizabeth's father wasn't named James, then there's a reasonable possibility that Matthew's father might have been (but not a certainty of course).

Knowing if his age varied in the census can also help, but I'd have to disagree with your statement that "I know his DoB was definitely 1811 from his death record" as a death record is perhaps the least reliable, as by definition the information doesn't come directly from the person themselves.

[teasie]

So if Elizabeth's father wasn't named James, then there's a reasonable possibility that Matthew's father might have been (but not a certainty of course).

'James' should of course read 'William', as the eldest son - I misread your previous post.

[Elwyn]

Regarding inaccurate ages, I have attached a letter which I found in parish records in PRONI (the public record office) in Belfast from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The likely reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him).