leonard smith

[gloryer]

well the secrets keep on revealing themselves in my tree.
My grandfather Leonard Smith b1894 Swanscombe didnt marry my grandmother Violet Freed , I always thought it was because she was already married to George Frederick Pearson. After Violet died he then married his cousin Hilda Tait/Johnson, on that marriage certificate he claims he is a bachelor. So on 1921 census when it was half price recently I found him in the navy as a stoker and MARRIED. lol. So then had to work out which Leonard Smith's marriage it could be luckily I hit upon the right one and was searching the parish records but couldnt find it so had to order a certificate, it was a registry office wedding so wouldnt have found it if I kept on looking. So Leonard Smith married Ellen Clarke 1918 but my dad wasnt born until 1929 so in those 11 years lord knows how many children he could have had. I have asked some cousins if they knew but they were completely in the dark about his previous marriage
I have been trying to get a lead on Ellen Clarke aged 24 when married feb 1918 father is Joseph Clarke general labourer. Not much to go on. Also if Leonard is in the navy where was she in 1921.
I found a possible death for Ellen Smith 1943 aged 50

If anybody is able to add anything, I have done searches but looking for births of Smith/Clarke si a nightmare and not sure if they would have been born in Kent as he was in navy so she could have moved to whereever he was although they lived near Chatham naval base so would have thought she would stay local to there

[cbcarolyn]

I am not suite sure what you are asking? Do you want just any details on Ellen Clarke?

these are the only details you have?
Ellen Clarke aged 24 when married feb 1918 father is Joseph Clarke general labourer
- what address did she put?
- Where was Leonard Smith living in 1921?
- i assume no middle name for Ellen
- who were the witnesses, could be worth tracking them down

can you add the details of his other marriage, and when he was with Violet Freed, I am getting confused over the timeline

[gloryer]

I would like to know more about Ellen Clarke as I only discovered yesterday that my grandfather Leonard Smith was married to her for 11 years before my dad was born with Violet Freed. The only details I have are what is on the marriage certificate. aged 24 when married 23rd feb 1918 both living at Colyers cottages milton street swanscombe kent father Joseph Clarke general labourer.
Leonard was in navy 1921 as stoker and married, this is how I came to discover this first wife.
1929 my dad was born to Leonard Smith and Violet Freed and they had 2 more children. I always thought they never married as Violet Freed was already married and had 2 children with Frederick George Pearson. she uses the name Pearson on all 5 of her childrens birth certificates as she never divorced Pearson.
After Violet Freed/Pearson died 1946 he then lived with his first cousin Hilda Tait/Johnson who also had children from her previous marriage. Leonard and Hilda and 2 children that I know of, Lily and Freddie.
So there is 11 years between Leonard marrying in 1918 and my dad being born 1929 so its quite possible that Leonard could have had several children in those 11 years. This may lead to some of my unknown DNA matches.
When Leonard Smith married Hilda Tait/Johnson he claims he is a bachelor so I dont think any of the family knew he had been married previously. I have asked a couple of cousins yesterday and they are surprised as I am

[cbcarolyn]

there is an Ellen Clarke on census in 1901


Town: Cudham
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Bromley
Sub-registration district: Orpington
Piece: 691
Folio: 9
Page number: 12
Household schedule number: 72

Alfred Clarke 26 Head
Ellen Clarke 26 Wife
Ellen Clarke 6 Daughter
Emily Clarke 5 Daughter
John Clarke 2 Son

CLARKE, ELLEN COZENS
GRO Reference: 1894 S Quarter in BROMLEY Volume 02A Page 429

CLARKE, GRACE EMILY COUSINS
GRO Reference: 1896 J Quarter in BROMLEY Volume 02A Page 468

CLARKE, ALFRED JOHN COZENS
GRO Reference: 1899 J Quarter in BROMLEY Volume 02A Page 503

at the moment it was the only Ellen with the birth date with a father Alfred that I could find

she is not with them in 1911

there is a Helen Clarke b Cudham a servant in 1911 Woodlawn Page Heath Lane, Bickley, Kent - this is 15 miles from Swanscombe

any witnesses on marriage cert?

[gloryer]

father Joseph clarke Witnesses are Elsie doris Selfe ,thats Leonards sister and G W smith Leonards father.
I found a possible at southall but not been able to find anything else on her

[cbcarolyn]

I found a possible at southall but not been able to find anything else on her

what are her details?

there doesn't seem many with father Alfred, one in Essex, but don't think it is her.

[kylejustin]

there doesn't seem many with father Alfred, one in Essex, but don't think it is her.

the father is joseph, not alfred.

[cbcarolyn]

the father is joseph, not alfred.

doh - was looking too late last night! Gloryer never said

[cbcarolyn]

Found leonard at sea. On the Benbow. I assume you have his navy records from Ancestry?

He was in navy 1912 - 1928

[gloryer]

got a download from national archives. I also missed yesterday on 1921 census is has a tick for a 6 year old child, but he had only been married 3 years......... I started scrolling through parish records but I think they have removed some as with the census records I think they are keeping them locked for 100 years and the file I want is 1916 to 1930 so cant view it on line

[gloryer]

Found leonard at sea. On the Benbow. I assume you have his navy records from Ancestry?

He was in navy 1912 - 1928

cant find them on there, only leonard smith is derbyshire unless I am looking in wrong place

[cbcarolyn]

there are 2 records, one till 1928 it is on FMP and ancestry
First name(s) Leonard
Last name Smith
Service number K15204
Birth year 1894
Birth date 10 Apr 1894
Birth place Swanscombe
Birth county Kent
Birth country England
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference ADM 188/897/15204
Record set British Royal Navy Seamen 1899-1924
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & Service Records
Collections from Great Britain, UK None

and there is this one as well that is from 1928 to 1945 (maybe 1941 not quite sure why 45 is mentioned) - also on Ancestry, but if you are not on there you can download for free from NA

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14806542

Leonard Smith . Official Number: K. 15204 . Date of Birth: 10 April 1894

I can't see anything in there about marriage, just ships he sailed on.

I thought there must be a pension record somewhere that would have children/wives etc on there, not found one. Of out now

[cbcarolyn]

sorry crossed posts. I don't think you have first one

[cbcarolyn]

Just realised that you have a public tree on ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...04852374/facts

here is the other service record

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60522/images/43343_897_0-00203?pId=114693

[gloryer]

Just realised that you have a public tree on ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...04852374/facts

here is the other service record

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...203?pId=114693

thank you, so my next question is on the right its hard to read but it appears that march 1920 he was escorted by police back to chatham and sentenced to 35 days. I tried to find a newspaper report but my access is limited. I think findmypast probably has the best chance for finding anything but not got a sub for that

[teasie]

He absconded from HMS Research on 29 Nov 1919 and was recovered on 20 Mar 1920.

Its unlikely to have been reported in the press as it was a matter for the Navy, and fairly common.

[gloryer]

thank you for that. I was struggling to read that. Still not found anything on Leonards first wife Ellen Clarke. I long for the day when one of their descendants shows up in my dna matches

[gloryer]

Starting to think Ellen wasnt born in Kent. Just wrote down all the possible Joseph clarke marriages with the wife's maiden name then checked to a birth of an Ellen clarke with one of those maiden names and nothing matches

[gloryer]

well well, I thought I was on a break through but not so sure now. I have found an Ellen Smith on 1939 register living with Joseph Clarke and wife Lousia but they appear to be too old to be her parents. Ellen then gets Smith crossed out and married James A Barton. So if this is the one I am after she was in Whitstable, I am assuming these would be her grandparents, maybe her mother was unmarried so put Joseph as her father on marriage. All sorts of possibilities but bit of a coincidence.
Leonard was escorted back to chatham dockyard from faversham so maybe he was visiting Ellen as Whitstable and Faversham are not far apart

So this Ellen Smith in Whitstable is married which means Leonard Smith was married all along but must have eventually got divorced so they could both remarry.
How would I find a divorce?

[cbcarolyn]

there is this, but think a red herring

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