from haberdasher to grocer?

[kylejustin]

i have two ancestors, father in law and son in law of the other, both of essex; who in 1818 (tallow chandler + grocer) and 1828 (grocer) were listed as such in their PPC wills. i can find a london apprenticeship record in 1777 for these names but the master is a citizen and haberdasher? the master was apprenticed in 1749 as a haberdasher according to the london freeman records. i have seen people apprenticing as tallow chandlers, grocers, and haberdashers separately.

would haberdashers become grocers without apprenticing as such?

[Jill on the A272]

My tree is riddled with grocers in London (three families whose various children often intermarried) and not one of them was apprenticed, though one described himself as a master grocer. All you needed was enough money to set up shop.

[Lin Fisher]

I agree with you Jill, I think in the villages or smaller towns people decided to become a grocer and just set up in their front room.

I have people being grocers on one census, then often going on to running pubs or licenced victuallers on the next. They probably sold what was popular at the time.

[kylejustin]

Thank you. Thought it was odd people do apprenticeships but weren't needed.

[PhotoFamily]

KJ, I haven't quite followed what you were asking, and my understanding of Freedom of the City is flawed, but I think that I understand -
* the hold that the Companies in London had on their respective trades was weakening in the latter 1700s - and some Companies more so than others. For instance, I have an ancestor who was a Tin Plate Worker (stated in several records), but I can find no evidence of him getting the Freedom of the Company nor of the City. He almost certainly learned his trade from his father, but I think TPW was losing its hold d/t foreign competition.

* (I think!) Freedom of the City gave the Citizen to right trade in London, even outside of his Company. I have one who is listed (directory) as a Haberdasher, but he was by apprenticeship a Weaver. I have others who show up in one Company's rolls, but they seem to have obtained their Freedom in a different Company.

I've read a few write-ups about the Liveries in London, but nothing that specifically covered this subject. Take the above with a big grain of salt.