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  • Looking for Violet

    Can anyone help me to find Violet please. She’s not a direct relative of mine but is (probably?) the sister of my great Aunt.


    When I was initially researching the bones of my tree, I found my great aunt Ethel HALL in the 1901 census with her parents and her older brother Harold and sister Violet. Violet gives her age as 16 and place of birth Wandsworth, Surrey. At that point I didn’t go any further with that particular branch.

    That census is here...
    RG13
    59
    75
    26
    219
    1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
    https://search.findmypast.co.uk/reco...7-095bc89e0646


    But recently I found a photograph which my father had annotated on the back as being “Aunt Ethel’s sister Dorothy ‘Dot’ – (Dot Ash nee Hall) with their daughter Mollie”. I didn’t know anything about this Dorothy so I started researching a bit more and found her in the 1939 register with her husband Herbert and two children John and Mollie. All good so far so I went back to see if I could find out anything else about Violet. And I have drawn a blank – nothing except that one appearance in the 1901 census.


    From previous searches at the GRO I have MMN MERCERfor Harold and Ethel but no sign of Violet and no Dorothy with MMN MERCER. But there was a Dorothy with the right dates and location and MMN LANE. So I tried Violet with surnames LANE and MERCER as the dates suggest she was born out of wedlock - I have their parents marriage as being 1888 from the information that they gave on the census. Still no joy.


    The children Harold and Ethel are still with their parents in 1911- Violet is not with them and nor is Dorothy who would have been about 5 years old. So where was she? They say that they have 3 children all still alive.

    https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcr...030%2F0305%2F4


    I haven’t got a subscription for the 1921 census so if anyone can look them up that would be much appreciated.


    This is all making me think that Violet may have been her mother Emily’s daughter with a different father or her father Walter’s daughter with another mother. But I have so far failed to find anything else. And why doesn't Dorothy appear in the 1911 census?

    I am getting increasingly confused!
    Knowing how good some of you are at weedling out this kind of information, I’m hoping you might be able to shed some light.

    Thanks for reading so far

    Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

  • #2
    I can't help with census or searching Ancestry as I don't have a current sub... BUT could Dorothy be there but using a pet name? Dolly?
    Julie
    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

    .......I find dead people

    Comment


    • #3
      Could you give me the parents names/surnames please GG? and what year were the children born please, Dorothy, Violet and the other one. I'm a bit confused as to Ernest & Ethel are.. if they [the parents] say they have only 3 children living but you have mentioned 4? sorry if I am getting in a muddle I'm just trying to get my head around it.
      Julie
      They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

      .......I find dead people

      Comment


      • #4
        Sorry, I tried to explain it clearly but it's complicated. (I don't think I even mentioned an Ernest )

        This is the family as I have it at the moment.... BUT I'm not 100% sure that MERCER is really Emily's maiden name - I put it there because in the GRO index MERCER is given as the MMN for Harold and Ethel. I have not found any birth record for Violet. The birth record that I found for Dorothy gives MMN as LANE. So I'm confused too!

        Screenshot 2023-02-03 192351.jpg

        Ask away any further questions and I will answer as best I can...
        Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

        Comment


        • #5
          I've just found another proof that Violet existed and gives her DOB as 20 May 1885. A school admissions register found on Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...68896587/facts

          1895 Violet Hall school admission.jpg

          Still can't find a birth registration though.
          Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

          Comment


          • #6
            I looked on Ancestry.com and FamilySearch but didn't find anything that you haven't already found,

            Comment


            • #7
              I had a thought as I was going to sleep last night that Dorothy could be Violet’s daughter? That opens up a can of worms to be looked into today…. Hhhmmmm, I wonder
              Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

              Comment


              • #8
                OK, It's looking like you were right that she was born out of wedlock. If you have a marriage of 1888 and then Violet as being born 20 May 1885.
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm thinking that maybe Emily was previously married, if she was b.1857 then aged 28 to have her first child? [Violet] I'm not quite sure exactly where/what reg district to look in. I can't see any links that you post either to Ancestry or FMP as I haven't got a current sub. Do you have her marriage cert to Walter at all?
                  Julie
                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                  .......I find dead people

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No, I haven’t bought any certificates for this line but I think it might be worth getting the marriage for Walter and Emily and the birth cert for Dorothy which will reveal who her parents are. I’ll see if I can find any parish registers for the marriage before I order the certificate.
                    Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I can't find any marriage record for Walter apart from one in Norfolk which I don't think is him. He was apparently born in Norfolk but I think there is another Walter John HALL in Norfolk. If they never actually got married at all, surely they would have said on the 1911 census that they were married before their first child was born. This is a mystery.


                      1911 census Ethel Hall crop.jpg

                      I have ordered the marriage certificate for Dorothy HALL m Herbert ASH which might reveal something. Maybe I should get her birth certificate as well?
                      Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Harold Walter married in 1915 in Clapham to Annie Cecilia Walsh. On the marriage cert, his father is Walter John, a Die Maker. One of the witnesses is Ernest Edwin Leslie Ash possible relation to Herbert?

                        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource
                        Last edited by ozgirl; 04-02-23, 15:28.
                        Linda


                        My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks OzGirl. I have ordered the certificate now and I don’t think you can cancel them. And now that you have posted that I think I did see it earlier in my searches but forgot about it. I do get cross with myself when I make mistakes like that Stupid woman!
                          Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think that Violet may have been born as Emily Violet LOTT:
                            LOTT, EMILY VIOLET mmn MERCER GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 678

                            She was baptised at St Michael, Battersea (Wandsworth) on 10 Jul 1885 (born 20 May 1885) to Parents William & Emily Lott. Per the birth registration above, Emily's maiden name was MERCER

                            She married Ernest Edwin Leslie ASH 3 Oct 1908 Clapham, naming her father as William Lott, Fishmonger.

                            William & Emily LOTT are in the 1881 census at 28 Fullerton Road, Wandsworth - RG11/658/82/22

                            William Lott 35 Fishmonger b Tooting
                            Emily Lott 27 Wife born Clandown, Surrey - EDIT: Transcript says Clandown, image says Clandon
                            Alfred 6 son b Battersea
                            Lilian 4 daur b Wandsworth
                            Ernest 1 son b Wandsworth

                            LOTT, ALFRED WILLIAM MERCER mmn MERCER GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 627​
                            LOTT, LILIAN BEATRICE CAROLINE mmn MERCER GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 664​
                            LOTT, ERNEST ARTHUR mmn MERCER GRO Reference: 1879 D Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 683
                            LOTT, LEONARD ROLAND mmn MERCER GRO Reference: 1882 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 692​
                            ​LOTT, EMILY VIOLET mmn MERCER GRO Reference: 1885 J Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 678

                            In 1891 the family is at Eland (?) Road, Battersea - RG12/428/17/25
                            William Lott 44 Fishmonger b Tooting
                            Emily 35 wife b Clandon
                            Alfred 16
                            Lilian 14
                            Ernest 11
                            Leonard 9
                            Violet 5
                            Last edited by teasie; 04-02-23, 21:46.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Wow! Teasie! That is fantastic. How did you get to that? I’m interested in your thought process and how you did the search to get to that result. I really appreciate the time you have spent on it. Thank you so much.
                              Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I looked at that and I discounted it because I thought we had Violet in 1891 with Walter and Emily. however that was 1901. So the time line looks as though Emily Mercer married William John Lott in Dec Q 1873. They went on to have 5 children, the youngest of whom was Violet, born in 1885. The family is together in 1891, as Teasie said, but by 1892, Emily was now with Walter, as they had Harold that year. It looks like she took daughter Violet with her, I am trying to track down the other children of the first marriage
                                Linda


                                My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Ernest Lott b 1879 married Ethel in 1906 and had daughter Barbara in 1907. In 1911 he is with his family, and father William. However in 1939, he is with Ethel, and with them is an 85 year old Emily Hall! Must be Mum

                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery.../7816767:61596 - 1939


                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ue&pId=3598505 - 1911
                                  Last edited by ozgirl; 04-02-23, 22:58.
                                  Linda


                                  My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Leonard Rowland Lott b 1881 joined the Army in 1899. By 1906 he had emigrated to Canada as he married Bessie Walton that year, helpfully naming his parents as William Lott and Emily Mercer. He had a daughter June in 1915, and fought in the CEF in WWI.
                                    Linda


                                    My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Alfred William Lott b 1874 became an actor with the stage name Alfred Leslie. There are a lot of entries for him in the News Archives. He died in poverty in 1921, having gone blind a number of years earlier and having to give up work.

                                      His Find-a-grave entry

                                      https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...Tg1My4zMy4wLjA.
                                      Linda


                                      My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Gardengirl View Post
                                        Wow! Teasie! That is fantastic. How did you get to that? I’m interested in your thought process and how you did the search to get to that result. I really appreciate the time you have spent on it. Thank you so much.
                                        FMP have helpfully added the mother's maiden names from the GRO index to many (but not all) of the birth records, so I just looked for any births in Wandsworth RD 1885 +/- 2 years with the mmn Mercer, and the only one that came up with Violet in the name was Emily Violet Lott.

                                        I would have looked into her further anyway, but with the combination of 'Emily', 'Violet', 'Mercer', 'Wandsworth' and 1885, I had a very good feeling that this was her 😊.

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