Looking for Violet

[cbcarolyn]

Harold Walter married in 1915 in Clapham to Annie Cecilia Walsh. On the marriage cert, his father is Walter John, a Die Maker. One of the witnesses is Ernest Edwin Leslie Ash possible relation to Herbert?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource

I note that there is a tree on Ancestry that has Annie death 1973 in South Africa, no other info except marrying a Hall

Violets husband a witness on this also

[cbcarolyn]

I assume this to be her, not sure how this helps

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...295243&queryId =7ed436863e3ec46b99baef182a3abb5a&_phsrc=ZFe1587&_ phstart=successSource

Annie Cecilia Hall[Annie Cecilia Walsh]

Female

1931

Johannesburg, Transvaal, South Africa

Romford, 7 Seventh Avenue, Parktown North

Housewife

1931 Johannesburg North Voters Women

Pretoria Archives

Johannesburg North

103

6175

	HALL, GORDON ELLIOT	WALSH
GRO Reference: 1918 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 755

[cbcarolyn]

I'm not really following your logic. Dorothy Hall b 30 Dec 1906 is on the 1911 and 1921 census with her parents George & Annie Louisa.

I can find no connection whatsoever between George Hall and 'your' Hall family, although having said that, Walter John is a complete mystery as he seems to appear from nowhere. In 1921 he is transcribed only as John (I don't have access to the images) but I still can't trace him back before the 'marriage that never was'.

it doesn't say much interesting on the 1921 census, he is now a rubber stamp agent, rather than a maker or a die maker. still has Norwich as pob and with Emily and daughter Ethel Sophia 1 Gaskarth Rd, Balham.

boarder Claude Alfred Leslie with them also

one of Violets siblings was an actor https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...tt_%2F_leslie?

another sibling Leonard goes to Canada and Ernest joins him

[teasie]

Reading back through all of this I'm somewhat confused (aren't we all!!)

In your first post you said

When I was initially researching the bones of my tree, I found my great aunt Ethel HALL in the 1901 census with her parents and her older brother Harold and sister Violet

These are the only HALL children you mention, apart from Dorothy, who you say your father describes as

“Aunt Ethel’s sister Dorothy ‘Dot’ – (Dot Ash nee Hall) with their daughter Mollie”

Perhaps my brain has shut down through lack of sleep, but if Ethel is your father's Aunt, then which of her siblings is your father's parent?

It can only be Violet or Harold Walter, but you don't seem to know anything about them either, so presumably not. So how is Ethel your father's aunt?

[Gardengirl]

Ethel was married to Percy CAESAR who was the brother of my father's mother! So Ethel was his aunt through marriage. They were a slightly eccentric couple and never had children so we know very little about their lives.

Interestingly, I had a look at Percy and Ethel's marriage certificate and noticed that they, too had E. E. L. ASH and a member of the LANE family as their witnesses.

1923 marriage Ethel and Percy.jpg

So there is definitely a connection here somewhere. I just hope it doesn't cost me too much in certificates to find it!

[teasie]

OK, well I think I've followed that.... Mollie would be your father's mother's brother's wife's sister's daughter!

You said at post 57 that this would make her Mollie a first cousin to your father, but that's not correct. Even if Dorothy was Ethel's sister (and it doesn't look like she was), to be first cousin's your father & Mollie would need to share a grandparent, which they don't.

The big mystery seems to be 'who was Walter John Hall?'

He first appears as the father to Harold Walter Hall in 1892, but there's no trace of him that I can find before that. I have a possibility that I'm tracking down, but it's a long shot so don't get your hopes up!

[cbcarolyn]

Ethel was married to Percy CAESAR who was the brother of my father's mother! So Ethel was his aunt through marriage. They were a slightly eccentric couple and never had children so we know very little about their lives.

Interestingly, I had a look at Percy and Ethel's marriage certificate and noticed that they, too had E. E. L. ASH and a member of the LANE family as their witnesses.

1923 marriage Ethel and Percy.jpg

So there is definitely a connection here somewhere. I just hope it doesn't cost me too much in certificates to find it!

sorry I needed to work this out in my own head and put on paper..

Edwin Ash is Violet Lott (Hall) husband m1909; Ethel Hall (married Percy Caesar 1923) his half Brother in Law; Harold Walter Hall (married Annie C Walsh 1915) his half brother in law

[cbcarolyn]

this could be a complete red herring, but is this Dorothy's sister Violet, and the other violet is another Violet - if that makes sense?

These are children of Hall and MMN Lane
lane and hall.jpg

sorry - edit can see that she died in 1918 :(

[Gardengirl]

You said at post 57 that this would make her Mollie a first cousin to your father, but that's not correct. Even if Dorothy was Ethel's sister (and it doesn't look like she was), to be first cousin's your father & Mollie would need to share a grandparent, which they don't.

Oh yes, sorry, fuddled brain strikes again

[Gardengirl]

this could be a complete red herring, but is this Dorothy's sister Violet, and the other violet is another Violet - if that makes sense?

These are children of Hall and MMN Lane
lane and hall.jpg

OMG! That's all we need!

Or perhaps you have found the golden key!

[cbcarolyn]

OMG! That's all we need!

Or perhaps you have found the golden key!

sorry I have just found that she died in 1918...so just for records. Shows that they liked Violet as a name!

[Gardengirl]

The Emily Violet LOTT that we have found so far was born in 1885

I have this school admission record for her

Name • Violet Hall
Gender • Female
Age • 9
Birth Date • 20 May 1885
Admission Date • 18 Mar 1895
School • Fircroft Road School
Father • Walter Hall
Notes • Fircroft Road School (0864) opened in 1896. Became Fircroft Primary School in 1951

[Gardengirl]

Missed your post on the next page, Carolyn, but I'll leave mine in anyway.

Who died in 1918?

[teasie]

Right, it doesn't help with Dorothy - and in fact it complicates the entire tree even more (you'll need a paracetamol or two!) - but I think I've worked out who 'Walter John HALL' really is!

I'm pretty sure he's Walter John FLATT born Norwich on 21 Jan 1849

FLATT, WALTER JOHN mmn WALLER GRO Ref: 1849 M Quarter in NORWICH Vol 13 P 247

Potted History:
1851 in Norwich with parents Samuel & Caroline HO107, Piece 1814, Folio 311, Page 20
1861 in Westminster with parents & siblings: RG9/50/129/6
1866 marries Mary Wormsley at St Mary’s Lambeth. At this point he is a Commercial Clerk.
1871 with Mary & children at Churton Place, Pimlico. Commercial Clerk: RG10/107/7/16
1881 with Mary & children at Union Street, Southwark. Now a Bottle Maker: RG11/ 518/108/ 22
1891 with Mary & children at 75 Wycliffe Road, Battersea. Now a Rubber Stamp Agent: RG12/425/20/34

After this Walter John Flatt disappears off the face of the earth, but wife Mary is still around – alone but still married.

1901 Mary Flatt is at Lavender Hill & a monthly nurse: RG13/447/151/43
1911 Mary Flatt is alone at Acanthus Rd, Lavender Hill, monthly nurse: RG14/2182/379
1921 Mary Flatt (free index only) b 1850 alone in Battersea, Wandsworth
Mary died in 1935 (but I’ll post a little more about her separately).

I’ll look for more proof, but I’m 95% sure that Walter John FLATT is Walter John HALL:

Walter John HALL appears in 1892 – the year after the last sighting of Walter John FLATT.

They were both born in the same place (Norwich) in the same year (1849), and have the same first two names.

In 1871 Walter John FLATT is a Commercial Clerk, and in 1891 he is a Rubber Stamp Agent.
In 1901 Walter John HALL is a Commercial Clerk, in 1911 he is a Rubber Stamp Maker, and in 1921 he is a Rubber Stamp Agent

Going back to the 1891 census, which is roughly when Walter John & Emily must have met, given that Harold Walter was born in 1892:

• Emily – still married to William Lott – is at 58 Eland Road, Battersea - RG12/428/17/25
• Walter John Flatt is at 75 Wycliffe Road, Battersea - RG12/425/20/34

The map (hopefully) attached shows how close they were to each other.

Walter John & Emily 1891.jpg

[Gardengirl]

This is looking very interesting, Teasie, (and way beyond my researching skills! )

[teasie]

Walter John FLATT & Mary WORMSLEY had a number of children together, one of which was Walter John Wormsley Flatt born 1870.

Although Walter John Flatt Sr disappears after 1891, his family must have known that he was still alive because this was in the Norwood News dated 13 July 1928:

MOTHER'S MAINTENANCE
Walter Flatt, Gipsy Road, West Norwood, was another defendant. In this instance it was the case of a mother's maintenance. Flatt hardly thought he was responsible, given that his father was still alive.

The 1929 Electoral Roll has this for 163 Gipsy Road, Norwood (Lambeth)
FLATT Annie Alice
FLATT Elena Rosomond
FLATT Hilda Annie
FLATT Walter John

Annie Alice is Walter John Jr's wife, and the other two are his daughters.

EDIT: Walter John HALL had died earlier that year, so perhaps they didn't yet know? Like I said - more digging to do, but its certainly an interesting possibility!

[cbcarolyn]

Missed your post on the next page, Carolyn, but I'll leave mine in anyway.

Who died in 1918?

Violet - Dorothy's sister

[cbcarolyn]

Right, it doesn't help with Dorothy - and in fact it complicates the entire tree even more (you'll need a paracetamol or two!) - but I think I've worked out who 'Walter John HALL' really is!

I'm pretty sure he's Walter John FLATT born Norwich on 21 Jan 1849

FLATT, WALTER JOHN mmn WALLER GRO Ref: 1849 M Quarter in NORWICH Vol 13 P 247

Potted History:
1851 in Norwich with parents Samuel & Caroline HO107, Piece 1814, Folio 311, Page 20
1861 in Westminster with parents & siblings: RG9/50/129/6
1866 marries Mary Wormsley at St Mary’s Lambeth. At this point he is a Commercial Clerk.
1871 with Mary & children at Churton Place, Pimlico. Commercial Clerk: RG10/107/7/16
1881 with Mary & children at Union Street, Southwark. Now a Bottle Maker: RG11/ 518/108/ 22
1891 with Mary & children at 75 Wycliffe Road, Battersea. Now a Rubber Stamp Agent: RG12/425/20/34

After this Walter John Flatt disappears off the face of the earth, but wife Mary is still around – alone but still married.

1901 Mary Flatt is at Lavender Hill & a monthly nurse: RG13/447/151/43
1911 Mary Flatt is alone at Acanthus Rd, Lavender Hill, monthly nurse: RG14/2182/379
1921 Mary Flatt (free index only) b 1850 alone in Battersea, Wandsworth
Mary died in 1935 (but I’ll post a little more about her separately).

I’ll look for more proof, but I’m 95% sure that Walter John FLATT is Walter John HALL:

Walter John HALL appears in 1892 – the year after the last sighting of Walter John FLATT.

They were both born in the same place (Norwich) in the same year (1849), and have the same first two names.

In 1871 Walter John FLATT is a Commercial Clerk, and in 1891 he is a Rubber Stamp Agent.
In 1901 Walter John HALL is a Commercial Clerk, in 1911 he is a Rubber Stamp Maker, and in 1921 he is a Rubber Stamp Agent

Going back to the 1891 census, which is roughly when Walter John & Emily must have met, given that Harold Walter was born in 1892:

• Emily – still married to William Lott – is at 58 Eland Road, Battersea - RG12/428/17/25
• Walter John Flatt is at 75 Wycliffe Road, Battersea - RG12/425/20/34

The map (hopefully) attached shows how close they were to each other.

Walter John & Emily 1891.jpg

....thud....

wow - hence no marriage as he already was married interesting the name change, if they new where he was!

[teasie]

cbcarolyn what does the 1921 census say about (Walter) John Hall's age in years & months?

[Gardengirl]

sorry I have just found that she died in 1918...so just for records.

Violet - Dorothy's sister

I am getting beyond confused now. I have Emily Violet ASH died in 1976

Record ID 7579::50044736
URL https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery.../50044736:7579
Image Page URL https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview..._d19763az-0025
Name Emily Violet Ash
Death Age 91
Birth Date 20 May 1885
Registration Date Q3 1976
Registration Quarter Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District Surrey South eastern
Inferred County Surrey