Cornish brick wall

[queenbee]

I haven't been on this site in about 10 years so apologies if I've posted on the wrong thread. But I am well and truly stuck! I have an illegitimate birth in 1859 in Stoke Climstead, Cornwall. Then can't find anything till 1871 census. Any help finding them in 1861 much appreciated.

Is this the right thread???

[Jill on the A272]

Welcome back

Yes, you are in the right place, post what you know and fingers crossed for success.

[queenbee]

Fab - here goes:

John Henry Helson born 5th March 1859 in Stoke Climstead. I have the certificate. Mother is Mary Ann Helson. Her address fir the registration of the birth is Launceston workhouse. Then nothing till 1871 when she, John and a daughter Charlotte are in Tavistock workhouse. Charlotte also remains a mystery.

on John's marriage certificate he gives his father as John Helson (deceased). I have a suspect in mind for this- but as far as I can tell Mary never married but she is using the same surname? I've traced her as a long term workhouse resident, and she died in Tavistock workhouse. John Henry is my husbands direct relation and we would love to know more of his origin story. He ended up marrying and not falling into the same life traps his mother did.

any help on John, John Henry, Mary Ann or Charlotte most appreciated. I do have a little more side info if needed.

much appreciated

[GallowayLass]

This is the only thing I can come up with in the vain hope that the enumerator has made a mistake

Mary A Wilson (housekeeper) was also born Stoke Climsland which I am assuming is what you meant but got hit by the predictive text gremlins?

The address according to FMP is Conycoombe but I can’t find it on a map so far. There is Coombe (now a small animal hotel) in the right area given the nearby places of Lower Ford / Ford Lower and Manaton Mill in South Hill area. All pretty close to Stoke Climsland.

John Wilson

2

1859

Visitor

Male

Stoke Climsland, Cornwall, England

South Hill

Cornwall

England

Liskeard

Callington

11

View others on page

70

1527

109

16

John Garrett 46 Head Eliza Garrett 7 Daughter Mary A Wilson 32 Servant John Wilson 2 Visitor

[cbcarolyn]

is Charlotte the Charlotte Ann Knott Helston B tavistock 1863? or is that another person?

there is a baptism in Calstock John Knott and Mary Ann Elston as parents, transcription only on FMP

[Sylvia C]

This is Charlotte's entry on GRO. No mother's maiden name shown.

	KNOTT, CHARLOTTE ANN KNOTT	-
GRO Reference: 1863 S Quarter in TAVISTOCK Volume 05B Page 358

[teasie]

The reason there is no mother's maiden name shown is down to the odd way the GRO index illegitimate births on certificates where the father is named. They only index it under the father's surname, but don't include a mmn as technically she doesn't have one as she's not married to the father.

On FreeBMD Charlotte's birth registration is shown twice, ie under both surnames (children were not given their own surname on a certificate until the 1960s)

KNOTT Charlotte Ann Knott Tavistock 5b 358
HELSTON Charlotte Ann Knott Tavistock 5b 358

[Sylvia C]

This is that Charlotte on the 1871 Census, from ancestry

John Knott 56 Married Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock, Cornwall
John Knott 10 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
Mary Ann Helston 41 Married Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
John Helston 11 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
Charlotte Helston 8 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall

Added to the entries are brackets connecting

a) John Knott 11 and Mary Helston, with notation His Son
b) John Helston and Charlotte Helston with notation Her Children


I'm not sure what the word is before "in Tavistock Workhouse"

[queenbee]

is Charlotte the Charlotte Ann Knott Helston B tavistock 1863? or is that another person?

there is a baptism in Calstock John Knott and Mary Ann Elston as parents, transcription only on FMP

Yes this is her. The Knott part of her names comes and goes!

[queenbee]

This is that Charlotte on the 1871 Census, from ancestry

John Knott 56 Married Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock, Cornwall
John Knott 10 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
Mary Ann Helston 41 Married Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
John Helston 11 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
Charlotte Helston 8 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall

Added to the entries are brackets connecting

a) John Knott 11 and Mary Helston, with notation His Son
b) John Helston and Charlotte Helston with notation Her Children


I'm not sure what the word is before "in Tavistock Workhouse"

Ahh I'd missed the Knott's on this record - probably as it's across 2 pages.

Helson also gets misspelled and mistranscribed as Hilson on future records. I wonder if Helson is actually the misspelling though as there is a village named Helston in Devon. Hmmmm

Any luck with Mary Ann before 1861?

[cbcarolyn]

Yes this is her. The Knott part of her names comes and goes!

You already have a number of records for her? can you post which ones you already have.

[GallowayLass]

queenbee Was the 1861 census I found late last night any good or not?
Have you tried workhouse admission / discharge records to see if there’s anything that links Mary Ann to that 1861 address or the family she worked for?

[teasie]

The only person I can see that fits by name/location is the wrong age:

In 1841 she's at Down Gate, Stoke Climsland with her parents Richard & Jenny and is aged 4

In 1851 she's a servant to the Rattenbury family at Old Mill, Stoke Climsland, aged 15 & born Stoke Climsland

[cbcarolyn]

This is that Charlotte on the 1871 Census, from ancestry

John Knott 56 Married Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock, Cornwall
John Knott 10 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
Mary Ann Helston 41 Married Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
John Helston 11 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall
Charlotte Helston 8 Scholar Employed (??) in Tavistock Workhouse Born Calstock Cornwall

Added to the entries are brackets connecting

a) John Knott 11 and Mary Helston, with notation His Son
b) John Helston and Charlotte Helston with notation Her Children


I'm not sure what the word is before "in Tavistock Workhouse"

I found this record and failed to see him, but hadn't found Knott by that time - good spot.

a couple of John Knotts (junior) in that area

[queenbee]

Info on Charlotte I've got:

1871 census entry.
Baptism in Calstock (transcript) 13/3/1864. Father John knott, mother Mary Ann Elston (Helson/Helston etc not mentioned for Charlotte's name)
Bcc - Charlotte Ann knott Helston, born 31/7/1863. Father John knott mother Mary and Helston. In todsworthy Calstock.

[queenbee]

queenbee Was the 1861 census I found late last night any good or not?
Have you tried workhouse admission / discharge records to see if there’s anything that links Mary Ann to that 1861 address or the family she worked for?

It looks good, and on a quick look I can't see a John that matches in the 1871 census. But enumerator has definitely written Wilson so no mistranscriptiom.

Apologies for delay, having to do this thread on my phone without research in front of me. Pesky work getting in the way!

[queenbee]

queenbee Was the 1861 census I found late last night any good or not?
Have you tried workhouse admission / discharge records to see if there’s anything that links Mary Ann to that 1861 address or the family she worked for?

GallowayLass do you know if the workhouse records are online? I've tried to search but can only find small snippets. Sadly not local to Cornwall so can't attend the record office

[GallowayLass]

queenbee Sorry no I don’t as I’m up in Scotland but look at Peter Higginbotham’s workhouses site. If he knows where any records are they are listed.

https://www.workhouses.org.uk/

I was more thinking the enumerator had misheard what the householder may have said rather than ancestry or FMP making a mistranscription

[cbcarolyn]

This is the only thing I can come up with in the vain hope that the enumerator has made a mistake

Mary A Wilson (housekeeper) was also born Stoke Climsland which I am assuming is what you meant but got hit by the predictive text gremlins?

The address according to FMP is Conycoombe but I can’t find it on a map so far. There is Coombe (now a small animal hotel) in the right area given the nearby places of Lower Ford / Ford Lower and Manaton Mill in South Hill area. All pretty close to Stoke Climsland.

John Wilson

2

1859

Visitor

Male

Stoke Climsland, Cornwall, England

South Hill

Cornwall

England

Liskeard

Callington

11

View others on page

70

1527

109

16

John Garrett 46 Head Eliza Garrett 7 Daughter Mary A Wilson 32 Servant John Wilson 2 Visitor

certainly looks promising. You can see all of census in one go on links on here https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CON/Stokeclimsland and can search with ctl & F (or similar).

she must be housekeeper elsewhere as lodging with ag labourer

[cbcarolyn]

there are notes she was at Tavistock workhouse in 1870

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?o=eventyear&d=asc&lastname=helson&keywordsplace=tavistock&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecategory=newspapers%2c%20directories%20%26%20social%20history&collection=social%20history&sid=999

and her death in 1885