Brick Wall Already

[cbcarolyn]

Clement went on to have family, hopefully might get a DNA match to him somehow and then you will know. he was in a similar area to them at one time, he stayed put had family etc all there as far as I can see.

[teasie]

I've been in contact with the owner of the Joseph Barner tree, explained the situation and he said there's a good possibilty it's the same Joseph. He also noticed the Clement is in Wales too cbcarolyn

Did he tell you where he got the DoB from? Does he have the actual birth certificate for Joseph Barner? If not, then I think its a must.

[Braidy]

Did he tell you where he got the DoB from? Does he have the actual birth certificate for Joseph Barner? If not, then I think its a must.

I'm waiting for him to get back to me, I'll keep you posted.

[teasie]

If it is right, I can see the tree has Clement Murray as a sibling. Which seems to tie in, he lives with a maiden Aunt (Barner)

Interestingly he is then in Wales also. Colliery worker but in Pontypridd area.

Wasn't Jessie in that area in 1904 when her daughter Violet was run over? It seems to be around the time that she & Joseph got together, with Violet registered as Sheppard (1902), and William being the first child registered as Murray (1904).

[cbcarolyn]

Wasn't Jessie in that area in 1904 when her daughter Violet was run over? It seems to be around the time that she & Joseph got together, with Violet registered as Sheppard (1902), and William being the first child registered as Murray (1904).

says they were staying at the Central Coffee Tavern, Taff Street, Pontypridd, in 1904
Clement 1911 is at 38 Royal Cottages, Maerdy which is in the district of Pontypridd

be lovely if we could find Clement in 1904!

there is a private Clement Murray mentioned in the papers, but can't find a military record atm

[GallowayLass]

I can see Clement on 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses plus 1939 register.

He married Cora M MORGANS in 1911 Pontypridd and died there 1951.
His mother’s ms was BARNER

MURRAY, CLEMENT	BARNER
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in YORK Volume 09D Page 16

[GallowayLass]

Could these be his parents? It’s the only marriage in Yorkshire 1881 +/- 10 years with a female BARNER to a male MURRAY. Her husband’s forename is Joseph!

Jane Barner

1877

Oct-Nov-Dec

York

Yorkshire East Riding

9d

140

Jane Barnen Jane Barner Joseph Murray Fred Richardson Elizabeth Winn

[GallowayLass]

Looks like a civil marriage as no church is mentioned on ukbmd.

MURRAY	Joseph	BARNER	Jane	1877	York District Marriages, York	York	DM/28/136

I've looked on ancestry and FMP for a baptism for both Joseph and his possible brother Clement but no joy.

[cbcarolyn]

I can see Clement on 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses plus 1939 register.

He married Cora M MORGANS in 1911 Pontypridd and died there 1951.
His mother’s ms was BARNER

MURRAY, CLEMENT	BARNER
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in YORK Volume 09D Page 16

yes good unique names, but not found them in the papers at all. Not found anything to say that Joseph is THE joseph. No will either fpr Clement, they seemed to have remained there. no funeral announcement in papers :( be interesting to know if any of the trees on Ancestry have found any gems.

I assume the mother died when Clement young and he was with his aunts and sister Agnes. I did find a death of Agnes.

[teasie]

Could these be his parents? It’s the only marriage in Yorkshire 1881 +/- 10 years with a female BARNER to a male MURRAY. Her husband’s forename is Joseph!

Yes, this is how we got to Joseph Barner in the first place - see my posts #92 & #93. The Ancestry tree with Joseph Barner on it gives a DoB that matches the 1939 for Joseph Murray, so we're waiting to find out if the tree owner has his birth certificate confirming this date.

[GallowayLass]

Yes, this is how we got to Joseph Barner in the first place - see my posts #92 & #93. The Ancestry tree with Joseph Barner on it gives a DoB that matches the 1939 for Joseph Murray, so we're waiting to find out if the tree owner has his birth certificate confirming this date.

Oops! It’s a long thread and I pop in now and then. Must have missed a bit

[cbcarolyn]

I think these 2 baptisms are Jane Barners older siblings and they are catholic william and Anna
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/2972/?name=_b*rn*&birth=_york-yorkshire-england-united+kingdom_89395&count=50&father=gu*
so Janes family could also be catholic. I am reading Hilma as same as Hilda? interesting if so to see name in family.

Might not be right , as can't read image that well

[Braidy]

Still waiting on the guy to get back me regarding the birth of Joseph, I hope it's soon. 😂

Would you recommend ordering the Joseph Barner birth cert anyway?

[cbcarolyn]

Still waiting on the guy to get back me regarding the birth of Joseph, I hope it's soon. 😂

Would you recommend ordering the Joseph Barner birth cert anyway?

teasie would be better to advise, It will give you an exact dob and if it ties in with 1939 register, I would think that would pretty much confirm. what sort of DNA matches are you getting?

[Braidy]

teasie would be better to advise, It will give you an exact dob and if it ties in with 1939 register, I would think that would pretty much confirm. what sort of DNA matches are you getting?

On Thrulines I'm getting no hits on Jospeh Barner and his family at all, so possibly he's not my great grandfather?

The gentleman has Joseph Barner's birth cert so I've asked him if he would mind sharing it with me.

[cbcarolyn]

it could mean that there has been no one DNA tested I guess, it doesn't look like they are a huge family, many died young/had no children

fingers crossed he comes back with the cert.

[Braidy]

it could mean that there has been no one DNA tested I guess, it doesn't look like they are a huge family, many died young/had no children

fingers crossed he comes back with the cert.

Ah I see, I hope that's the case and I can finally find out who he is.

The gentleman is going to send his cert over today. 🤞

[teasie]

Re the DNA, there's always the possibility that Joseph Barner & Joseph Murray are the same person, but not necessarily Ruby's biological father, so I think you need both the birth certificate and a DNA comparison. I'm no expert on DNA, but I would think you could also test against a descendant of one of Jessie & Joseph's known biologial children to work out whether Ruby was a full or half sibling.

Ruby was born 20 Apr 1914, so assuming she was full-term would have been conceived around Aug 1913. Jessie's closest workhouse admission was November 1913 as the wife of Joseph Murray, whose address was unknown. His address still wasn't known in Feb 1914.

[cbcarolyn]

I have been looking at the Barner family, I think this is Elizabeth who was the aunt looking after Clement, and is in a Catholic home.

Is the family catholic?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_29262_0024_29?treeid=171416310&personid=162382249220&usePUB=true&_phsrc=nHA1168&_phstart=successSource&pId=35803398

[kylejustin]

Thrulines isn't very accurate....it needs you to have an accurate tree attached to your DNA results, and it needs your matches to attach accurate trees as well. There's plenty of matches you will have that won't have any trees or any recognisable names in their trees.