Brick Wall Already

[Braidy]

Forgot to add the cert.

[cbcarolyn]

Edwin was the one he was in the paper with and sharing same address, so she can't have been with him then. Another address, where was Jessie living I wonder.

[Braidy]

Edwin was the one he was in the paper with and sharing same address, so she can't have been with him then. Another address, where was Jessie living I wonder.

She did certainly get around that's for sure.

Ruby's birth cert finally arrived today, father not listed. I can only run under the assumption that she was Joseph's daughter.

[cbcarolyn]

I wonder why she didn't put father then, wow what a mystery. is that all the certs now? At least you know it is her birth, I think you had a different one on your tree a while back.

[teasie]

Edwin was the one he was in the paper with and sharing same address, so she can't have been with him then. Another address, where was Jessie living I wonder.

I think Reuben had 'remarried' by then - post #63

[teasie]

I wonder why she didn't put father then, wow what a mystery. is that all the certs now? At least you know it is her birth, I think you had a different one on your tree a while back.

The cert says the birth was registered 12 May 1914, and Jessie was in the workhouse as Jessie Sheppard, widow, & wasn't discharged until 14th May.

Her address is shown as 'Ty Prontypridd" which is the workhouse (ty = house, or 'the house'), so I wonder if the registrar came to the workhouse, leaving Jessie with little choice but to continue the charade - she couldn't have named Joseph as the father unless he was present at the registration or she was married to him (or at least claiming to be).

[cbcarolyn]

seems logical, like GL said a smart cookie really. Lucky they didn't have computers back then!

should be able to do an amazing timeline for her and the children. just can't go back with Joseph

[GallowayLass]

Given Joseph Murray’s age a few posts back, he ought to have been registered around 2Q 1868. No big surprise but I haven’t been able to find a birth in York for a boy called Joseph with any of the surnames he used Murray, Lewis and Perry or a variant. There was a Joseph MOOR but he is accounted for on censuses plus later married with children and deceased.

[cbcarolyn]

Given Joseph Murray’s age a few posts back, he ought to have been registered around 2Q 1868. No big surprise but I haven’t been able to find a birth in York for a boy called Joseph with any of the surnames he used Murray, Lewis and Perry or a variant. There was a Joseph MOOR but he is accounted for on censuses plus later married with children and deceased.

in 1911 when he has become Perry he put 1877 and Leeds as birth and can see that there is one living with Charles Jackson as Nephew, did wonder if this was him, started trying to find a sister for him, or tried to established his wife's name. she seemed to be Biden, but that was a previous married name.

he is here with sister Mary https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...9?pId=12413955

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7572/images/WRYRG11_4519_4522-0504?pId=24836863

then with next census different age and PoB I stopped!

[GallowayLass]

Using that different info there’s these as possibilities for Leeds 1877 +/- 2 years.
MARRA is maybe a bit far out but my MURRAY lot have been recorded also as MERRY and MORRIS. At least nothing matches in this whole thread to indicate this Joseph is the same man as my rogue Joseph MURRAY as he was born way too early and I have his Cheshire baptism

MARRA, JOSEPH	DOWLING
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 477

MERRY, JOSEPH	RIDER
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 484

MORRIS, JOSEPH	ALLENBY
GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 464

MORRIS, JOSEPH ALFRED	SALT
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 516

[teasie]

But don't forget that the 1939 register has Joseph's YoB as 1876, altered to 1881.

If I have the right birth for Jessie (and her sister Alice), then her YoB is way out on pretty much every record, including the 1939.

JONES, JESSIE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 348
JONES, ALICE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 140

I have their parents as Llewellyn & Victoria - does anyone else have something different?

[teasie]

Just throwing this in as a possibility - I haven't looked any further than the 1891 for him

1881 York - RG11/4717/118/18
Joseph Murray 30 Bricklayer b York
Jane Murray 30 wife b York
Joseph Murray 4 son b York

1891 York - RG12/3888/133/19
Joseph Murray 40 widower Bricklayer b York
Joseph Murray 14 son Printers Clerk b York

Marriage York 1877 - Joseph MURRAY & Jane BARNER

Birth: BARNER, JOSEPH (no mmn, suggesting illegitimate) GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in YORK Volume 09D Page 29

[teasie]

Just throwing this in as a possibility - I haven't looked any further than the 1891 for him

1881 York - RG11/4717/118/18
Joseph Murray 30 Bricklayer b York
Jane Murray 30 wife b York
Joseph Murray 4 son b York

1891 York - RG12/3888/133/19
Joseph Murray 40 widower Bricklayer b York
Joseph Murray 14 son Printers Clerk b York

Marriage York 1877 - Joseph MURRAY & Jane BARNER

Birth: BARNER, JOSEPH (no mmn, suggesting illegitimate) GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in YORK Volume 09D Page 29

Oooh, I don't know whether its correct or not, but there is a tree on Ancestry with JOSEPH BARNER on it, giving his full DoB as 27 May 1876, which matches with the 1939 register

[Katarzyna]

Great finds teasie. The fact that he was illegitimate and his parents married a year later is good for the fit.
Edit: Printers clerk to photographer is not a giant leap either.

[Braidy]

I couldn't find what the ty meant, despite Googling it, thanks teasie


I had always wondered which YoB was correct on the 1939, is there a reason as to why Josephs and many others have been altered? Are they just corrections? There's so much to learn and get your head around.

I also have Llewellyn and Victoria down for Jessie's parents, I spoke to a cousin I have who is related to David Jones (Dai) (Ruby's husband) about Jessie having the siblings listed, he said they didn't have a sister called Jessie, but everything I find leads me back to them, so he possibly didn't know? When pressed about Ruby he said they never really had anything to do with Ruby/Jessie, despite Ruby and Dai being first or second cousins, and Dai being his uncle. It's probably worth me ordering Jessie's birth cert too, I ordered one which came this week, but it was wrong, so I'll order the ones that have been posted.

I will message the man with Joseph Barner in his tree to see if he has any infomation, it says that we are not a DNA match or he hasn't taken a test, so I'll see if he's taken one.

[cbcarolyn]

But don't forget that the 1939 register has Joseph's YoB as 1876, altered to 1881.

If I have the right birth for Jessie (and her sister Alice), then her YoB is way out on pretty much every record, including the 1939.

JONES, JESSIE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 348
JONES, ALICE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 140

I have their parents as Llewellyn & Victoria - does anyone else have something different?

I have those parents
1881

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8059/images/MONRG11_5241_5245-0121?pId=16058603

1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/6897/images/MONRG12_4361_4362-0363?pId=626612

[cbcarolyn]

I couldn't find what the ty meant, despite Googling it, thanks teasie


I had always wondered which YoB was correct on the 1939, is there a reason as to why Josephs and many others have been altered? Are they just corrections? There's so much to learn and get your head around.

I also have Llewellyn and Victoria down for Jessie's parents, I spoke to a cousin I have who is related to David Jones (Dai) (Ruby's husband) about Jessie having the siblings listed, he said they didn't have a sister called Jessie, but everything I find leads me back to them, so he possibly didn't know? When pressed about Ruby he said they never really had anything to do with Ruby/Jessie, despite Ruby and Dai being first or second cousins, and Dai being his uncle. It's probably worth me ordering Jessie's birth cert too, I ordered one which came this week, but it was wrong, so I'll order the ones that have been posted.

I will message the man with Joseph Barner in his tree to see if he has any infomation, it says that we are not a DNA match or he hasn't taken a test, so I'll see if he's taken one.

do you have any DNA matches to trees that you can't work out why?

No idea why the DoB have been changed for them both, not seen that before. If you mean the other alterations on the page, The register was adjusted for years by NHS for married names.

[cbcarolyn]

Oooh, I don't know whether its correct or not, but there is a tree on Ancestry with JOSEPH BARNER on it, giving his full DoB as 27 May 1876, which matches with the 1939 register

looks promising, disappointed that no Lewis or Perry!

[cbcarolyn]

If it is right, I can see the tree has Clement Murray as a sibling. Which seems to tie in, he lives with a maiden Aunt (Barner)

Interestingly he is then in Wales also. Colliery worker but in Pontypridd area.

[Braidy]

I've been in contact with the owner of the Joseph Barner tree, explained the situation and he said there's a good possibilty it's the same Joseph. He also noticed the Clement is in Wales too cbcarolyn

I've been having a look at census/BDM certs etc.... and it seem plausible as nothing else seems to fit. 🤷♀️ I'll keep looking though.

Hope everyone is well.