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  • #81
    Forgot to add the cert.
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    • #82
      Edwin was the one he was in the paper with and sharing same address, so she can't have been with him then. Another address, where was Jessie living I wonder.
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

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      • #83
        Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
        Edwin was the one he was in the paper with and sharing same address, so she can't have been with him then. Another address, where was Jessie living I wonder.
        She did certainly get around that's for sure.

        Ruby's birth cert finally arrived today, father not listed. I can only run under the assumption that she was Joseph's daughter.

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        • #84
          I wonder why she didn't put father then, wow what a mystery. is that all the certs now? At least you know it is her birth, I think you had a different one on your tree a while back.
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

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          • #85
            Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
            Edwin was the one he was in the paper with and sharing same address, so she can't have been with him then. Another address, where was Jessie living I wonder.
            I think Reuben had 'remarried' by then - post #63

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            • #86
              Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
              I wonder why she didn't put father then, wow what a mystery. is that all the certs now? At least you know it is her birth, I think you had a different one on your tree a while back.
              The cert says the birth was registered 12 May 1914, and Jessie was in the workhouse as Jessie Sheppard, widow, & wasn't discharged until 14th May.

              Her address is shown as 'Ty Prontypridd" which is the workhouse (ty = house, or 'the house'), so I wonder if the registrar came to the workhouse, leaving Jessie with little choice but to continue the charade - she couldn't have named Joseph as the father unless he was present at the registration or she was married to him (or at least claiming to be).

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              • #87
                seems logical, like GL said a smart cookie really. Lucky they didn't have computers back then!

                should be able to do an amazing timeline for her and the children. just can't go back with Joseph
                Last edited by cbcarolyn; 27-05-22, 21:45.
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

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                • #88
                  Given Joseph Murray’s age a few posts back, he ought to have been registered around 2Q 1868. No big surprise but I haven’t been able to find a birth in York for a boy called Joseph with any of the surnames he used Murray, Lewis and Perry or a variant. There was a Joseph MOOR but he is accounted for on censuses plus later married with children and deceased.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                    Given Joseph Murray’s age a few posts back, he ought to have been registered around 2Q 1868. No big surprise but I haven’t been able to find a birth in York for a boy called Joseph with any of the surnames he used Murray, Lewis and Perry or a variant. There was a Joseph MOOR but he is accounted for on censuses plus later married with children and deceased.
                    in 1911 when he has become Perry he put 1877 and Leeds as birth and can see that there is one living with Charles Jackson as Nephew, did wonder if this was him, started trying to find a sister for him, or tried to established his wife's name. she seemed to be Biden, but that was a previous married name.

                    he is here with sister Mary https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...9?pId=12413955

                    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...4?pId=24836863

                    then with next census different age and PoB I stopped!
                    Carolyn
                    Family Tree site

                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

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                    • #90
                      Using that different info there’s these as possibilities for Leeds 1877 +/- 2 years.
                      MARRA is maybe a bit far out but my MURRAY lot have been recorded also as MERRY and MORRIS. At least nothing matches in this whole thread to indicate this Joseph is the same man as my rogue Joseph MURRAY as he was born way too early and I have his Cheshire baptism
                      MARRA, JOSEPH DOWLING
                      GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 477
                      MERRY, JOSEPH RIDER
                      GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 484
                      MORRIS, JOSEPH ALLENBY
                      GRO Reference: 1878 D Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 464
                      MORRIS, JOSEPH ALFRED SALT
                      GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in LEEDS Volume 09B Page 516
                      Last edited by GallowayLass; 28-05-22, 09:38.

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                      • #91
                        But don't forget that the 1939 register has Joseph's YoB as 1876, altered to 1881.

                        If I have the right birth for Jessie (and her sister Alice), then her YoB is way out on pretty much every record, including the 1939.

                        JONES, JESSIE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 348
                        JONES, ALICE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 140

                        I have their parents as Llewellyn & Victoria - does anyone else have something different?

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                        • #92
                          Just throwing this in as a possibility - I haven't looked any further than the 1891 for him

                          1881 York - RG11/4717/118/18
                          Joseph Murray 30 Bricklayer b York
                          Jane Murray 30 wife b York
                          Joseph Murray 4 son b York

                          1891 York - RG12/3888/133/19
                          Joseph Murray 40 widower Bricklayer b York
                          Joseph Murray 14 son Printers Clerk b York

                          Marriage York 1877 - Joseph MURRAY & Jane BARNER

                          Birth: BARNER, JOSEPH (no mmn, suggesting illegitimate) GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in YORK Volume 09D Page 29
                          Last edited by teasie; 28-05-22, 14:14.

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                          • #93
                            Originally posted by teasie View Post
                            Just throwing this in as a possibility - I haven't looked any further than the 1891 for him

                            1881 York - RG11/4717/118/18
                            Joseph Murray 30 Bricklayer b York
                            Jane Murray 30 wife b York
                            Joseph Murray 4 son b York

                            1891 York - RG12/3888/133/19
                            Joseph Murray 40 widower Bricklayer b York
                            Joseph Murray 14 son Printers Clerk b York

                            Marriage York 1877 - Joseph MURRAY & Jane BARNER

                            Birth: BARNER, JOSEPH (no mmn, suggesting illegitimate) GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in YORK Volume 09D Page 29
                            Oooh, I don't know whether its correct or not, but there is a tree on Ancestry with JOSEPH BARNER on it, giving his full DoB as 27 May 1876, which matches with the 1939 register

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                            • #94
                              Great finds teasie. The fact that he was illegitimate and his parents married a year later is good for the fit.
                              Edit: Printers clerk to photographer is not a giant leap either.
                              Last edited by Katarzyna; 28-05-22, 16:49.
                              Kat

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                              • #95
                                I couldn't find what the ty meant, despite Googling it, thanks teasie


                                I had always wondered which YoB was correct on the 1939, is there a reason as to why Josephs and many others have been altered? Are they just corrections? There's so much to learn and get your head around.

                                I also have Llewellyn and Victoria down for Jessie's parents, I spoke to a cousin I have who is related to David Jones (Dai) (Ruby's husband) about Jessie having the siblings listed, he said they didn't have a sister called Jessie, but everything I find leads me back to them, so he possibly didn't know? When pressed about Ruby he said they never really had anything to do with Ruby/Jessie, despite Ruby and Dai being first or second cousins, and Dai being his uncle. It's probably worth me ordering Jessie's birth cert too, I ordered one which came this week, but it was wrong, so I'll order the ones that have been posted.

                                I will message the man with Joseph Barner in his tree to see if he has any infomation, it says that we are not a DNA match or he hasn't taken a test, so I'll see if he's taken one.

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                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                  But don't forget that the 1939 register has Joseph's YoB as 1876, altered to 1881.

                                  If I have the right birth for Jessie (and her sister Alice), then her YoB is way out on pretty much every record, including the 1939.

                                  JONES, JESSIE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 348
                                  JONES, ALICE mmn MORGAN GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 140

                                  I have their parents as Llewellyn & Victoria - does anyone else have something different?
                                  I have those parents
                                  1881
                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...1?pId=16058603
                                  ​​​​​​​1891

                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...363?pId=626612
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by Braidy View Post
                                    I couldn't find what the ty meant, despite Googling it, thanks teasie


                                    I had always wondered which YoB was correct on the 1939, is there a reason as to why Josephs and many others have been altered? Are they just corrections? There's so much to learn and get your head around.

                                    I also have Llewellyn and Victoria down for Jessie's parents, I spoke to a cousin I have who is related to David Jones (Dai) (Ruby's husband) about Jessie having the siblings listed, he said they didn't have a sister called Jessie, but everything I find leads me back to them, so he possibly didn't know? When pressed about Ruby he said they never really had anything to do with Ruby/Jessie, despite Ruby and Dai being first or second cousins, and Dai being his uncle. It's probably worth me ordering Jessie's birth cert too, I ordered one which came this week, but it was wrong, so I'll order the ones that have been posted.

                                    I will message the man with Joseph Barner in his tree to see if he has any infomation, it says that we are not a DNA match or he hasn't taken a test, so I'll see if he's taken one.
                                    do you have any DNA matches to trees that you can't work out why?

                                    No idea why the DoB have been changed for them both, not seen that before. If you mean the other alterations on the page, The register was adjusted for years by NHS for married names.
                                    Carolyn
                                    Family Tree site

                                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Originally posted by teasie View Post

                                      Oooh, I don't know whether its correct or not, but there is a tree on Ancestry with JOSEPH BARNER on it, giving his full DoB as 27 May 1876, which matches with the 1939 register
                                      looks promising, disappointed that no Lewis or Perry!
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        If it is right, I can see the tree has Clement Murray as a sibling. Which seems to tie in, he lives with a maiden Aunt (Barner)

                                        Interestingly he is then in Wales also. Colliery worker but in Pontypridd area.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment


                                        • I've been in contact with the owner of the Joseph Barner tree, explained the situation and he said there's a good possibilty it's the same Joseph. He also noticed the Clement is in Wales too cbcarolyn

                                          I've been having a look at census/BDM certs etc.... and it seem plausible as nothing else seems to fit. 🤷‍♀️ I'll keep looking though.

                                          Hope everyone is well.

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