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  • Brick Wall Already

    Hey everyone,

    I'm hoping this is in the right place, apologies if not. I've been actively researching my family tree for a few months now, but cannot find anything on my paternal great father apart from an entry on the 1939 register. Living family are no help and I've been stuck as to where to go for tips and advice.

    I have tried running DOB though the GRO and Free BDM, run his details through Ancestry and Find My Past but cannot find anything, unless I'm completely overlooking the information is throwing up.

    Does anyone have any tips that might be able to point me in the right direction?

    Thanks in advance,

    Braidy.

  • #2
    Hello and welcome to FTF.

    As he’s showing in the 1939 Register then he is deceased so feel free to post the details from that on here and we can try to help.
    When you say you cannot find anything on him, do you mean that you know where and when he was born, married and died and to whom he was married but just can’t get those things to come up in online searches or are you completely in the dark with everything about him apart from the 1939 Register entry?
    Last edited by GallowayLass; 09-05-22, 11:18.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
      Hello and welcome to FTF.

      As he’s showing in the 1939 Register then he is deceased so feel free to post the details from that on here and we can try to help.
      When you say you cannot find anything on him, do you mean that you know where and when he was born, married and died and to whom he was married but just can’t get those things to come up in online searches or are you completely in the dark with everything about him apart from the 1939 Register entry?

      Thank you so much for your quick reply.

      The only thing I know of him is the information on the 1939 register, before my uncle died he mentioned he was possibly born in London.

      I know details of his wife Jessie, my great grandmother and their children, but nothing on him, I'm not sure if I'm missing anything?

      There are some workhouse records stating my great grandmother and some of the children were admitted, and he's down as being deserted. I've attached the entry where he and my great grandmother Jessie feature. Ruby Murray who is also listed is his daughter and Arthur his son-in-law.

      I appreciate your help. Thank you.
      You do not have permission to view this gallery.
      This gallery has 1 photos.

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      • #4
        Do you have his & Jessie's marriage certificate? This should tell you where he was living and who his father was (or who he claims he was), and the witnesses may also provide clues.

        Can you tell us more about the workhouse records, as sometimes there are more records that haven't been transcribed & can be hard to find, but the known ones at least give us a starting point for where to look.
        Last edited by teasie; 09-05-22, 12:03. Reason: correction

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Braidy View Post


          Thank you so much for your quick reply.

          The only thing I know of him is the information on the 1939 register, before my uncle died he mentioned he was possibly born in London.

          I know details of his wife Jessie, my great grandmother and their children, but nothing on him, I'm not sure if I'm missing anything?

          There are some workhouse records stating my great grandmother and some of the children were admitted, and he's down as being deserted. I've attached the entry where he and my great grandmother Jessie feature. Ruby Murray who is also listed is his daughter and Arthur his son-in-law.

          I appreciate your help. Thank you.
          Sorry but I have to go out now for a couple of hours. Will join in again later.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by teasie View Post
            Do you have his & Jessie's marriage certificate? This should tell you where he was living and who his father was (or who he claims he was), and the witnesses may also provide clues.

            Can you tell us more about the workhouse records, as sometimes there are more records that haven't been transcribed & can be hard to find, but the known ones at least give us a starting point for where to look.
            I just went to the GRO to apply for their marriage certificate, it say it wants an approximate year and also wants to know place of marriage, I'm unsure if they were married in England or Wales as Jessie was Welsh. Do you know if it will matter if I guess incorrectly? As you can tell, I barely know what I'm doing. I have Ruby's (his daughter) marriage certificate to my grandfather, it has their address at time of marriage and Joseph is listed on that too with no other details.

            I've attached the workhouse document, it fits in with the dates and names I have, so I am assuming it's the right people.

            Thank you for taking the time to reply.
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            This gallery has 1 photos.

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            • #7
              I've had a look at daughter Ruby's birth registration on the GRO for 1914 Mile End which says mother's maiden name is Moody, the only Murray/Moody marriage is

              Jun 1914, Poplar, 1c 950 Florence J Moody and Robert J T Murray which are not the names on the 1939 though each contains the initial J which could possibly be or Jessie and Joseph. If

              the marriage was in Wales the GRO would have it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jill on the A272 View Post
                I've had a look at daughter Ruby's birth registration on the GRO for 1914 Mile End which says mother's maiden name is Moody, the only Murray/Moody marriage is

                Jun 1914, Poplar, 1c 950 Florence J Moody and Robert J T Murray which are not the names on the 1939 though each contains the initial J which could possibly be or Jessie and Joseph. If

                the marriage was in Wales the GRO would have it.
                Thanks Jill. I have wondered if's that's Ruby but her mothers surname was Jones. It's strange how she doesn't show up. I've contacted the GRO and they say "Indexed data not available". As far as I'm aware the parent's and siblings I have for Ruby are correct, could there be a reason she doesnn't show up?

                I have been stumped for months regarding Ruby and her father Joseph, I just don't know what I'm doing wrong.

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                • #9
                  Please will you tell us where you found the surname JONES for Ruby's mother?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gwyn in Kent View Post
                    Please will you tell us where you found the surname JONES for Ruby's mother?
                    Ruby had a sister (Beattie) and a brother (Wilfred) who I met as a child. She had other siblings too, who checking via GRO come back with the surname Jones also. I ordered Wilf's birth cert and Jones is stated on that, see attached.
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                    • #11
                      Just looked up the 2 boys on the workhouse records and see you have posted Wilfreds B C

                      Joseph Llewellyn born Sep 1905 Newport Mons

                      Also found John Charles born Jun 1912 NNM Jones Newport

                      It says she was pregnant on the records and found Thomas Howard born Sep 1914. in LLanelly. Just a suggestion.

                      Haven't found a marriage yet
                      Lin

                      Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
                        Just looked up the 2 boys on the workhouse records and see you have posted Wilfreds B C

                        Joseph Llewellyn born Sep 1905 Newport Mons

                        Also found John Charles born Jun 1912 NNM Jones Newport

                        It says she was pregnant on the records and found Thomas Howard born Sep 1914. in LLanelly. Just a suggestion.

                        Haven't found a marriage yet
                        Ruby was born in April 1914 so I assume Jessie was pregnant with her? I added John Charles as sibling recently. A different workhouse record shows a Jessie and Joseph Murray with a child called Hilda? I'm not sure if these are my great grandparents or just namesakes? https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/28471694?h=946858

                        Is it usually this difficult to not be able to find documentation on people, given that it's not that far back? I only have one relative alive who knew Jessie, but she is not inclined to speak about it.

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                        • #13
                          It shouldn't be this difficult if they always use the same name and date of birth. Probably trying to hide something. I have quite a lot on my tree that I can't trace very well.

                          Do you have either Joseph or Jessies death dates or even the quarter they died?

                          Probably was Ruby but didn't see her on GRO.
                          Lin

                          Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

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                          • #14
                            To help everyone with access this is the tree on Ancestry.
                            https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...05772513/facts
                            Phil
                            historyhouse.co.uk
                            Essex - family and local history.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jessie would have only been 14/15 when Hilda, but certainly seems coincidental
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
                                It shouldn't be this difficult if they always use the same name and date of birth. Probably trying to hide something. I have quite a lot on my tree that I can't trace very well.

                                Do you have either Joseph or Jessies death dates or even the quarter they died?

                                Probably was Ruby but didn't see her on GRO.
                                This is Ruby I have on my tree, I didn't even think to add the link until I saw Keldon do it.

                                https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...55202010/facts

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                                • #17
                                  I am missing something I can't see how you know Ruby's parents are Joseph and Jessie from Wales? Is it just that you know she had a brother wilfred and you have found a Wilfred birth? where did you see him in London?

                                  I am not sure I follow how the workhouse records in Wales tie up with a the 1939 register where they seem to be together and he is a photographer. it certainly could be possible.


                                  Last edited by cbcarolyn; 09-05-22, 23:08.
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                                    I am missing something I can't see how you know Ruby's parents are Joseph and Jessie from Wales? Is it just that you know she had a brother wilfred and you have found a Wilfred birth? where did you see him in London?

                                    I am not sure I follow how the workhouse records in Wales tie up with a the 1939 register where they seem to be together and he is a photographer. it certainly could be possible.

                                    My mother, as well as other family have always maintained Ruby was born in Wales, Joseph however apparently born in London. I am going on their say so.

                                    Wilf shows up as having siblings such as Beattie, Ruby and Joseph Llewellyn (which I know is correct), I do not however know of the other siblings Hilda, William and John. It's difficult trying to piece it all together when everone who know them has either passed or is tight lipped.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      You could get Rubys marriage, it will tell you where they were living, and her fathers occupation. Even the witnesses could be useful.

                                      Does look like they are hiding, should be able to find them on 1921 census.

                                      using a mix of GRO, freeBMD and FMP you should be able to find all the children with their mothers maiden name. But I can't find Ruby.
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        just looking in the welsh newspapers, I think this must be Joseph a travelling photographer:

                                        https://newspapers.library.wales/vie...35/4144637/61/

                                        they lost a child :( violet mary murray - although I can only find 2 registrations with that name neither have Jones as MMN

                                        I guess he went travelling and left Jessie with the children to fend for themselves for weeks at a time.
                                        Last edited by cbcarolyn; 10-05-22, 09:25.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

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