Maiden names

[Dammit6000]

Hi all, i'm just new to this forum and family history research so forgive me if this post is in the wrong forum or my query is a bit of a no-brainer. I have hit a bit of a brick wall with one of my ancestors. I have the marriage record (London 1819) but the bride is listed as widow. Just wondering what would be the norm at the time regarding whether the name listed is likely to be her maiden name or deceased husbands surname? Would seem extremely difficult to trace her birth if using ex-husbands name. I have found 1841 census records but no maiden name listed.

[Anne in Carlisle]

It would be usual (normal) for a widow to marry with the surname of her previous marriage. Yes, it can be extremely difficult to find out who she really was, specially in a place like London, although not quite as difficult in a small village. She would be too old to have any children after the start of birth registration, I presume? Finding the birth registrations of children born after 1837 can give you the mother's original surname.
Anne

[Jill on the A272]

Dammit6000 welcome to the forum, as Anne said it would be her first husband's name on her 2nd marriage record. It might be worth looking at burials in that parish for men with the relevant surname prior to 1819 (though of course she may have moved from wherever that happened.

Do you have the details of the 1819 marriage please so we can help with the search or suggest other avenues?

[cbcarolyn]

Have you found her in census until her death, you can sometimes get lucky residing with another family member.

Newspaper reports on their death, but have to say I have not found much in the way of that in London.

Wills - any possibility of wills from a family member - a childless one, linking everyone up?

[kylejustin]

If the name isn't too common you can look for marriages of her widowed surname and cross match them with her given name for the original marriage.

if you know of any children from the first marriage, finding their baptisms will give you their father's name, perhaps an occupation or address too.

[Dammit6000]

Thanks everyone for the replies. So the marriage is Jospeh Panting to Elizabeth Donald 1819. Thier daughter was Caroline Panting born in 1823 and the mother is listed as "Elizabeth Ann". I always thought "Ann" was her middle name but maybe its her maiden name. I still can't find anything concrete. They are both present in 1841 and 1851 census, but both died before 1861. No real clues in either. Elizabeth was born around 1795, so the window for her first marriage is fairly narrow, still I couldn't find any matching death of first husband before 1819.

[Jill on the A272]

I see that their marriage was at St Alphege, Greenwich. There is a burial for a John Donald on 9th Jan 1814 at St Alphege, aged 45 of Broad Way, Westminster. Possibly a candidate for Elizabeth's first husband?

[Jill on the A272]

Hmm, false alarm, sorry about that. John Donald left a will and named his wife as Esther. He had a nephew called George Donald, these are the only family named.

[cbcarolyn]

On findmypast there is a transcript, it says both the bride and groom are both widowed

Wedding as Jill on the A272 has said 28 Dec 1819

[cbcarolyn]

There is a marriage in
Southwark
Elizabeth Ann Merrett 21 May 1820 George McDonald

Deptford
Elizabeth Hatch 3 July 1821 Joseph McDonald

London St Michael Le Querne
Elizabeth Edmonds 1819 Jas Mac Donald

Could follow them up deaths/census etc.

I can't locate your Joseph on the census so not sure what he did, or where he is.

[cbcarolyn]

have you seen this:

https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18250915-341

[Dammit6000]

Thanks again everyone! The record from oldbailey is almost definately her. They are in the 1841 census - Joseph is listed as John and Elizabeth as Eliza. There is a family named Bennett with them. They resided in Neatsby Court, Whitechapel (near to this attack). Thier address is unchanged in 1851. Perhaps the Bennett family is related? Their child (my GGGGrandmother) had already left by 1841 to Australia.

[cbcarolyn]

The marriage banns image is on Ancestry, but gives no more info than they are both widowed.

How amazing that she went to Australia so young and so long ago.

[garstonite]

I am a bit confused - was Caroline
Caroline Amelia Elizabeth Panting born 4th January 1822 - St Bodolph ,Aldgate ,London

• Deceased 3 August 1913 - Lismore, New South Wales, Australia, aged 91 years old married name Greenalgh ???

[cbcarolyn]

I am a bit confused - was Caroline
Caroline Amelia Elizabeth Panting born 4th January 1822 - St Bodolph ,Aldgate ,London

• Deceased 3 August 1913 - Lismore, New South Wales, Australia, aged 91 years old married name Greenalgh ???

that is the one I have found. there are a number of Ancestry trees with her. But none have traced the mother back any further than the marriage. Not sure why she has an additional name of Amelia

some have this burial https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...9?pId=12199446

Here is the marriage:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...82?pId=7467101
He is much older than her, wondering if there were other children around for him

[garstonite]

was one of the trees you found owned by D Bradley in Belfast ? - that is the one I found ...thanks Carolyn ..

[cbcarolyn]

garstonite
they seem mostly from Australia

[Dammit6000]

Yes Caroline Greenhalgh is my ancestor who died in Lismore 1913. Sorry I have her birth year as 1823. She came to Australia in 1840 unassisted (Ship - Lady McNaughton). I think she was named after King George IV wife Caroline of Brunswick (who was treated very badly around that time) and thats where the Amelia comes from. I also can't find any trees that go beyond her parents, though I think I have tracked down Joseph's birth - 1762 Royal Wootten Basset. Can't find his definite first marriage though.

[cbcarolyn]

Many have him as this dates fit his birth on census, but think place is wrong

Name: Joseph Panting
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 25 Aug 1768
Baptism Place: Fairford, Gloucestershire, England
Parish as it Appears: Fairford
Father: William Panting
Mother: Mary Panting

1851 census has him as
Red Hartow, Gloucestershire, England

This looks like place but dates wrong, looks like a bit more of a common name in the area!

Name: Joseph Panting
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 21 Feb 1773
Baptism Place: Redmarley D'abitot, Gloucestershire, England
Parish as it Appears: Redmarley D'abitot
Father: John Panting
Mother: Anne Panting

The page for baptisms in 1764 is missing :( so he may have been on that

[Dammit6000]

Hi again. Thanks for helping out. I have investigated these two births of Jospeh you mentioned but ruled them out because I found matching deaths. On the 1841 census his name is John and born in London. In 1851 it says born in Red Martow, Gloucestershire. The closest thing I could find to Red Martow is Rodmarton, Gloucestershire, which is very close to Wiltshire. So I guessed maybe he wasn't born there but grew up there.

I have been doing some deep research into Elizabeth. She was born around 1795 and already widows by 1819. I found a marriage to William Donald / Elizabeth Young in 1816, St Alphage London. Two children - James 1816 ; Ann 1818 to parrents William and Elizabeth, baptised St Alphage. I then went searching for a death of William Donald. Nothing on FMP, which I have subscription. Ancestry has a few records, but I don't have subscription to look at these. If you have subscription could you look at these for me?