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Baptism wording help please plus fresh eyes to check my work

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  • Baptism wording help please plus fresh eyes to check my work

    This is the Roman Catholic baptism that I mentioned a few days ago that I meant to post and I forgot all about it. I'd appreciate, if anyone has the spare time to check all I have added below to ascertain that the Thomas SILLITTO who married in 1879 is the same man who remarried in 1916.

    What are the words on the second line that come between “Die 20 Februarii 1858 natus est” and “Bapteratus est”.

    Also - what are the last four lines beginning Patrone (at least that’s word I think it is).


    SILLITTO. Thomas Baptism 1858.JPG




    There is a note down the right hand side to see the following page which notes the marriage in 1916 of the child Thomas (whose baptism is in the first image) to Elizabeth Melbourne. Is Maii March or May??

    SILLITTO, Thomas Page following baptism entry.JPG


    I was a bit puzzled by this because as far as we were aware, Thomas only married the once in 1879 to Eliza Robinson in a Civil Marriage at Stoke, Staffordshire. Index entry found on ukbmd.org and according to some trees on ancestry took place 5 August at Our Lady of the Angels and St Peter in Chains, Hartshill Road, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, England. There is an image of the marriage certificate which has the correct address and occupation for the groom and his deceased father who was also called Thomas.

    Eliza died in 1908 and Thomas in 1924.
    I reckon that it was a second marriage for Thomas at age 58 but none of the many trees on ancestry know about it yet it looks like it was in the same church (see 5. below) as the above marriage to Eliza in 1879. I can't explain why the 1916 marriage gets a mention on the page following his baptism but the 1879 one does not. Any ideas??

    I had a heck of a job working out who Augusta was especially as she only acquires a middle name from 1916 but despite the following finds, I have not found her birth certificate index entry. Her death shows her forenames the opposite way round
    1929 1Q Uttoxeter. SILLITTO, Elizabeth Augusta aged 70

    My research tonight so far is;

    1. Baptism
    Augusta RUSHTON baptised 9 October 1859 at St Mary, Uttoxeter to William RUSHTON (wood sawyer) and Sarah. Residence Uttoxeter.

    2. Marriage
    22 September 1878 at St Mary, Uttoxeter
    Augusta RUSHTON (under age), spinster, residence Uttoxeter, father William RUSHTON (sawyer)
    Charles Graham HARRIS (full age), seaman, residence Uttoxeter, father William HARRIS (commercial traveller). Charles Graham HARRIS died 1890 Shelton, Stoke on Trent
    They had 7 children

    3. Marriage
    7 July 1890 St Mark, Shelton
    Augusta HARRIS, aged 31, widow, residence 17 Pyenest Street, Shelton [spelled Pynest], father William James RUSHTON (gardener)
    George MELBOURNE aged 22, bachelor, labourer, residence 19 Pyenest Street [spelled Pynest], father Thomas MELBOURNE (labourer)

    4. 1911 census Residence Stramshall, Uttoxeter
    MELBOURNE, George, Head aged 48 Married 21 years, no issue, (roadman – Rural District Council of Uttoxeter), born Caverswall, Staffordshire. George MELBOURNE dies in Uttoxeter 1913.
    MELBOURNE, Augusta Wife aged 53 Married 21 years, no issue, born Uttoxeter, Staffordshire

    5. 1911 census Residence 45 Havelock Street, Stoke on Trent
    SILLITTO, Thomas and a few of his children by 1st wife Eliza. The youngest two are Francis Bertrand born 1899 and Edward George born 1900

    6. Marriage

    7 Maii 1916 ‘S. Mariae ? Petri’, Stoke-on-Trent according to the second image. [I think this is the Roman Catholic Church known as Our Lady of the Angels and St Peter in Chains and was on Back Glebe Street (now the address is Hartshill Road), Stoke. Confusingly, the Church of England parish church of Stoke is called St Peter ad Vincula (St Peter in Chains) aka Stoke Minster and is half a mile away].

    7. Census 1921 Residence, still in Hanley but no results match Havelock Street
    SILLiTTO, Thomas, Augusta E., Francis B and 1 other. A search for Edward George finds him in the same household but as George Edward so he must be the '1 other'.
    Last edited by GallowayLass; 11-01-22, 00:04.

  • #2
    I looked at the lines before I read the rest of your post. I can't make out the first bit yet.

    Patrone fuir Georgina Fielding and Gulielemus Harris
    Matrona fuit Elizabetha Harris & Maria Lilliltoe

    Patrone/Matrone fuit is godfather/godmother.

    I spotted you have a Sillito - my Lewcocks often get transcribed as Sewcock and in the image it is definitely an L.
    Caroline
    Caroline's Family History Pages
    Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others. Socrates

    Comment


    • #3
      Maii means of the month of May DH is looking!

      I have tasked him with it, give him something to do. Although to be fair he is failing, all those latin studies, and he even has a book on latin for family historians.
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

      Comment


      • #4
        I just worked out that it is 52 years since my Latin O level. I got an F but was top of the class. How time flies. We learned it by speaking it first, then reading it, then writing it, just how they teach modern languages nowadays - not good for passing O levels though.
        Caroline
        Caroline's Family History Pages
        Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others. Socrates

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Caroline View Post
          I just worked out that it is 52 years since my Latin O level. I got an F but was top of the class. How time flies. We learned it by speaking it first, then reading it, then writing it, just how they teach modern languages nowadays - not good for passing O levels though.
          DH did it again when he first retired, not sure it stuck though!
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Caroline View Post
            Patrone fuir Georgina Fielding and Gulielemus Harris
            Matrona fuit Elizabetha Harris & Maria Lilliltoe

            Patrone/Matrone fuit is godfather/godmother.
            Thanks for that info about godparents. Was it common to have 4 godparents for a child?
            Could the first name be Georgius rather than Georgina seeing as it’s a pair of godfathers? The cleric definitely has poor handwriting.

            Comment


            • #7
              I read it as

              ...natus est et 20 die ejusdem mensis et anni bapteratus est


              born on 20th February and on the 20th day of same month and year baptised. The number is not that clear though.
              Last edited by ozgirl; 11-01-22, 11:47.
              Linda


              My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

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              • #8
                Many thanks. I just couldn’t figure out the words at all. Given I did Latin at school from 2nd year to SYS, I quite ashamed of myself. I’ve forgotten more than I ever learned LOL

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                  Maii means of the month of May DH is looking!

                  I have tasked him with it, give him something to do. Although to be fair he is failing, all those latin studies, and he even has a book on latin for family historians.
                  What’s the book DH has please? I could do to get myself a copy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post

                    Thanks for that info about godparents. Was it common to have 4 godparents for a child?
                    Could the first name be Georgius rather than Georgina seeing as it’s a pair of godfathers? The cleric definitely has poor handwriting.
                    Yes it should be Georgius - my mistake, I can see it now.
                    Caroline
                    Caroline's Family History Pages
                    Do not do to others what angers you if done to you by others. Socrates

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post

                      What’s the book DH has please? I could do to get myself a copy
                      well he didn't solve it - so no idea if the book can be recommended! but it's this:
                      IMG_20220111_122435_sm.jpg

                      IMG_20220111_122405_sm.jpg
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        he thinks the numbers that look like "80" might be "eo" (curly E?)- which will mean on that day, so same result if that makes sense.
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Die 20 Februarii 1858 natus est et 20 die ejusdem mensis et anni bapteratus est
                          Thomas filius Thomo Sillitoe et Marianna (ie Mary Ann or at least it would be plain Mary Ann in an Irish record, but could be Marianne in an English context) Sillitoe olim Harris de Hollygrove in parochia de Checkley, conjugam
                          Patrona fuere Georgius (ie George) Fielding et Gulelmus (ie William) Harris
                          Matrona fuent Elizabetha (ie Elizabeth) Harris et Maria (ie Mary - or at least it would be plain Mary in an Irish record, but could be Maria in an English context) Sillitoe

                          Translation - sounds stilted as I have more or less stuck to the Latin word order:
                          (On) the 20th day of February 1858 was born and (on) the 20th day of the same month and year was baptised Thomas, son of Thomas Sillitoe and Mary Ann Sillitoe formerly Harris, of Hollygrove in the parish of Checkley, married.
                          Godfathers were George Fielding and William Harris
                          Godmothers were Elizabeth Harris and Mary Sillitoe.

                          Some oddities in the Latin:
                          priest uses patrona/matrona which strictly speaking means patrons/patronesses. I’ve never seen 4 godparents before in a Catholic baptism - perhaps they wanted to keep both sides of the family happy! The usual Latin words for godfather and godmother (singular) are patrinus and matrinus so plurals would be patrini and matrini. Also not sure why the priest uses different verb forms for “were” - it should be “fuerunt”. Perhaps he skipped Latin class when they covered the 3rd person plural perfect tense. You can see this has brought out my inner pedant!

                          Christine
                          Researching:
                          HOEY (Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Tyrone and Strangford, Down)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Karamazov View Post
                            Also not sure why the priest uses different verb forms for “were” - it should be “fuerunt”. Perhaps he skipped Latin class when they covered the 3rd person plural perfect tense. You can see this has brought out my inner pedant!
                            and I’m most grateful for it

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