Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed

[GallowayLass]

unless I am in a muddle, isn't this Harriet the next generation from Sidney's mother? she is born around 1869, so the daughter of one of these Hydes, or even a cousin?

That’s what I’m beginning to think too - hedging towards a daughter of a male sibling given the names she gives her own children are the same as some of those on that 1851 census. What’s bugging me though is on GRO online index, I can’t find a Harriet (or variant or even a child not yet named at registration) with the surname HYDE or HIDE etc. who was born 1869+/- 1 year anywhere in London.

[vera2013]

I'm wondering did Augusta Hyde b 1841 Chelsea m Mary Ann f Charles have a child ie Harriet b 1869 who ? Is the mother of Eva Murray.

Or as GL suggested a sib of Augusta. On 1851 Mary Ann and Charles Hyde have son Charles J born 1851 Chelsea.

EDIT or Daughter Harriet in 1851 b 1843 Chelsea m Mary Ann f Charles who gave birth to the Harriet m of Eva Murray

I noted the 1877 dob for Sigmund/Sidney Haberer. On one of his many journeys he gave 1868 for dob although 1877 on 1939 register.

@William1983 will you please give full details of birth certs, if you have them, for Sidney b 1895, Augusta b 1890, Eva b 1891 and Herbert b 1898

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

Murray1983 you will see that there has been several bits of the tree unearthed, but we need to know if any of it fits with the information in your possession.

Do you have the birth certificates? Do you have any other documents? I am assuming you have the death cert of Harriet, what details are on this?

[Katarzyna]

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&indiv=try&h=2190268[/url]
Charles Hyde 35
Mary A Hyde 31
Augusta Hyde 9
Harriet Hyde 8
Charles A Hyde 2 Mo
Frederick Hyde 22
Isaac Fox 25
Esther Mullett 18

I think Mary Ann and Charles Hyde would possibly be the Grandparents but definitely not parents of the Harriet Hyde born 1869.
What about Charles a Hyde b 1851 being Harriet's father? Or the illegitimate daughter of Augusta b 1842 or Harriet b 1843? Has anyone looked at those yet?

[cbcarolyn]

I see that there are some digitised newspapers in Singapore, the search is a bit clunky, and tbh not really sure what to search for!

https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/

Like GallowayLass can't see birth in GRO for Harriet, can't see 1898 death either.

Augusta is on census no occupation and marries late in life to a widower - they are on same page in 1881-

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...5?pId=13441809

at home in 1871

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...69?pId=5693181

widowed at 1891

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...0?pId=14587664

[GallowayLass]

I looked for a marriage of Charles A Hyde last night but didn’t find one in the pre 1915 index.

[vera2013]

I think Mary Ann and Charles Hyde would possibly be the Grandparents but definitely not parents of the Harriet Hyde born 1869.
What about Charles a Hyde b 1851 being Harriet's father? Or the illegitimate daughter of Augusta b 1842 or Harriet b 1843? Has anyone looked at those yet?

Have been trying to find family in 1861 to see if any clues to Harriet's (b 1862) parents. Charles Hyde died 1853. Mary Ann Hyde married John Rowland after 1861 census but can't find her as a Hyde or Rowland

Vera

[Katarzyna]

Bear with me LOL!

Charles John HYDE Marries Mary Ann Mullett
have daughter Harriet Hyde 1843
Harriet marries Robert Murray cannot find marriage but...
on 1871 census :

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_702_703-0269?pId=5693183

Robert Murray27 Head
Harriet Murray 28 Wife
William Murray4 Son
Harriet Murray 2 Daughter b 1869

Living Next door to John Rowland and his second wife Mary Ann HYDE ( widow nee Mullett ) and Augusta Hyde.

So do you think Harriet b 1869 used Murray as her married name and Hyde as maiden name to give children a father????

[Katarzyna]

Harriet Hyde b 1843
1851 census on post #16 with marriage cert to John Rowland.

[vera2013]

Bear with me LOL!

Charles John HYDE Marries Mary Ann Mullett
have daughter Harriet Hyde 1843
Harriet marries Robert Murray cannot find marriage but...
on 1871 census :

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_702_703-0269?pId=5693183

Robert Murray27 Head
Harriet Murray 28 Wife
William Murray4 Son
Harriet Murray 2 Daughter b 1869

Living Next door to John Rowland and his second wife Mary Ann HYDE ( widow nee Mullett ) and Augusta Hyde.

So do you think Harriet b 1869 used Murray as her married name and Hyde as maiden name to give children a father????

Hah good find. Never thought to scroll down!

So that would link with the Harriet with Gertrude in 1891 Pancras.

She was having children with anon so quite likely.

Vera

[GallowayLass]

Bear with me LOL!

Charles John HYDE Marries Mary Ann Mullett
have daughter Harriet Hyde 1843
Harriet marries Robert Murray cannot find marriage but...
on 1871 census :

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_702_703-0269?pId=5693183

Robert Murray27 Head
Harriet Murray 28 Wife
William Murray4 Son
Harriet Murray 2 Daughter b 1869

Living Next door to John Rowland and his second wife Mary Ann HYDE ( widow nee Mullett ) and Augusta Hyde.

So do you think Harriet b 1869 used Murray as her married name and Hyde as maiden name to give children a father????

Looks good to me and that Harriet was born Battersea so it fits with her being born London.

[vera2013]

Can see only one Wandsworth reg for 1869

Harriet Emily Murray 1st Q mm n Hyde

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

Bear with me LOL!

Charles John HYDE Marries Mary Ann Mullett
have daughter Harriet Hyde 1843
Harriet marries Robert Murray cannot find marriage but...
on 1871 census :

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/LNDRG10_702_703-0269?pId=5693183

Robert Murray27 Head
Harriet Murray 28 Wife
William Murray4 Son
Harriet Murray 2 Daughter b 1869

Living Next door to John Rowland and his second wife Mary Ann HYDE ( widow nee Mullett ) and Augusta Hyde.

So do you think Harriet b 1869 used Murray as her married name and Hyde as maiden name to give children a father????

that would makes sense - amazing find. Hee hee I scrolled up and found William Sampson on another - but not on that one.

do we think this is her

MURRAY, HARRIET EMILY	HYDE
GRO Reference: 1869 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 550

[cbcarolyn]

sorry I posted this about an hour after I wrote it!

[cbcarolyn]

Ancestry did the work on this one - so guess the connection been made somewhere already

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...44&pId=2129821

Robert David McMurray!

John and MaryAnn Rowland witnesses

[cbcarolyn]

On this basis, the father is not married to Harriet and not a Murray, maybe he was with someone elsewhere, or just always travelling.

We really need to see those Birth certs.

[Murray1983]

Hello dear all and happy new year :-)

Thanks a lot for the above findings that are in line of what I have found so far. This is confirming what I think.

I have attached my findings and the relative records in the attached PDF. In it there is a potential father for Sidney. (Siegmund Marcus LÖWENSTEIN )

There is not certainty but quite some elements are interesting and fitting in term of place and dates.

If you can have a look and let me know your thought as experienced member :-) . I am quite junior in Genealogy.

[Katarzyna]

So was this a test then? I am not sure why I have spent hours looking for Harriet's ancestry only to find you knew this all along. That is not called confirming your data.

[vera2013]

Thank you William. Although you did say in your opening post that you had a lot of info on Sidney's mother Harriet, it is useful to have those details to pick up any clues which may lead to a marriage or relationship.

I note Harriet died 1902. My interpretation of dc is that she had been in childbirth 1 day previously in June 1902 following which she went into cardiac failure. I cannot see a birth/death for a child in GRO but it could have been a stillbirth recorded elsewhere

I can see a record for a birth of Herbert Murray Sep q 1898 Marylebone and death 1899 Sep q Pancras aged 1 year

I did not see anything on Sidney's bc to indicate mother Harriet was a domestic servant or father a dealer in precious stones.

Is there any more evidence to support Sigmund Lowenstein being the father of Sidney. Possibly something that records Harriet being a domestic servant to them. I don't recall seeing the family in St George's Hanover W London but will check. Harriet lived in Pancras area in N London

Have you seen Sigmund's Will. It is available to purchase. May show a link to the children

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

It would have been useful if you had come back with more information sooner as we were not aware of all the info you had.

With the certs it is obvious that Murray is not Harriets married name as her mother is with her at the birth. and her name is Murray.

Do you have the will of Siegmund Marcus LÖWENSTEIN? I would think if he had a family it will be on there.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...=successSource
If you don't you can order it from probate service for £1.50

If you have the documentation from RAF records that he is the father, I am not sure what else you are looking for.

NB Herbert was born 1898 and Harriets death is 1902 so I assume not his birth that caused her death.

EDIT - sorry post crossed with Vera's.

I guess it is possible that the children are from different fathers

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar