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  • Murray family mystery to solve. Help needed

    Hello
    I am french and trying to know more on my English roots. My grandfather was English. And I am looking to find more information on my gran grandfather(Sidney) and his father. I know Sidney date and place of birth. I have found birth certificate. But there is a mystery I am not able to sort out.

    Sidney Murray born may 9th 1895 , 29 Kentish town road. Registration District PANCRAS , Sub District Camden Town.

    The certificate state that her mother is Harriet Murrey formerly Hyde and his Father is Henry Murrey. What is strange to me is that Murrey is written with an “e” while on my gran grandfather papers and then all family member this is written with a “a” Murray.
    According to the family history Sidney had sisters and when was young was placed in a family Voller as his father was traveler and Diamond merchant. I have found some traces in census of that placement.

    I have found also birth certificates of ladies where date and mother are corresponding. Always Harriet Murray formerly Hyde. One with same residence.
    1 : Augusta Gertrude Murray (With a “a”) 4 June 1890, 29 Kentish town road. Registration District PANCRAS , Sub District Camden Town.


    2: Eva : Where this is interesting as in this I found relevant information that is corresponding to the history we have always heard from the family . Meaning Father profession and name of the father Sigmun. Sigmun is well stated as Sidney Father’s name in some records Sidney ‘s wife wrote decades ago.


    What I don’t reconcile and looking for help is the Sidney Father history. It’s seems he was jewish and that is why they change name. So Murray is perhaps not the real family name that could explain the mistake between “e” and “a” and why in a certificate there is no name , one henry or last with Sigmun . Sigmun being the name known in family history. So I am really interested to know more about that strange family history and trying to sort it out. I have not been able to find marriage certificate with an Harriet Hyde and a Sigmun or Henry Murray or Murrey. Maybe I am not looking at the right places (I looked at the GRO). I also don’t know if we can find some child placement information. Sidney being place in the Voller Familly. I even have some military letter stating this. I know finally that Sigmun is supposed to dead in Singapour but I have unfortunately no date. And finally, it’s seems that Harriet had a last child Herbert but died while delivering.

    I know this is a strange story. I have already received some help and made lot of progress on the Sidney's mother branch but this is why I am interested in and willing to know more on my English root that I am proud of and Sidney Father side

    By advance thanks for any help.

  • #2
    Sorry that I can’t shout out “Hello, we are related!” as I have nobody in my tree from London but I can say do not worry about the variant spelling of Murray. In my own family, I have seen Murray (which we are today), Murrey, Murry, Murey, Morrey, Morry, Morey and even Morris but that last one is a bit of a red herring as it has been partly due to accent and the official writing what he thought he heard / how it ought to be written and partly deliberate in the case of a man trying to cover up a bigamous marriage.

    Comment


    • #3
      1891 census
      Could this be Harriet and the baby (here listed as Gertrude) but no husband present although Harriet is listed as married?
      The address is just over 1 mile from where Augusta Gertrude was born.

      https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...w/7681136:6598

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is a Sidney in 1901 census at 141 Arlington Road, Camden Town as a visitor to the Voller household. Augusta Gertrude not with him.

        https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview.....&pId=2014913
        Last edited by GallowayLass; 31-12-21, 11:28.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi and welcome to the forum, do you know have the birth certificate of Sidney? that should give you the fathers profession as a definite, or maybe you are saying from birth cert?
          Last edited by cbcarolyn; 31-12-21, 18:06.
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


          • #6
            Could you tell us which census records you have found already. If Augusta and Sidney were both born at 29 Kentish Town Road then they should have been there in the 1891 census, so this is confusing me.

            there are several families at that address, but none looking like yours - this is one family
            First name(s) Harry F
            Last name Greenfield
            Relationship Head
            Marital status Married
            Sex Male
            Age 40
            Birth year 1851
            Birth town London
            Birth county Middlesex
            Occupation Tool maker
            Archive reference RG12
            Piece number 129
            Folio 10
            Page 13
            Schedule 85
            Record set 1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

            and there are Gallant and Laishleys.

            what was the address of Eva's birth?
            Last edited by cbcarolyn; 31-12-21, 19:50.
            Carolyn
            Family Tree site

            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

            Comment


            • #7
              Sidney was born in 1895 cbcarolyn .

              Gertrude (Augusta) on 1901 census.
              72 Gowan Ave, Fulham. Relation to Head of House: Visitor to Elizabeth Saunders - widow - Laundress & family.

              https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDA5ODgwNDUuMA..
              Last edited by Katarzyna; 31-12-21, 22:06.
              Kat

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you contacted the owners of these two private trees on ancestry. I searched using the name of Harriet Hyde.

                801CDBD0-58A5-4A21-8FB7-E5F11591EF36.jpeg

                Comment


                • #9
                  You say you have the birth certificate but I can only see this one for Augusta what does it say for father's name and occupation and address? A June birth could have been registered in the July- September Quarter.

                  MURRAY, AUGUSTA GERTRUDE - no mother's maiden name given ????
                  GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 98

                  MURREY, SIDNEY mmn HYDE
                  GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 110

                  Can you give us the full details of the certificates. It looks possible that Harriet wasn't married at the time of Augusta's birth. I cannot find a marriage.
                  Kat

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                    Sidney was born in 1895 cbcarolyn .

                    Gertrude (Augusta) on 1901 census.
                    72 Gowan Ave, Fulham. Relation to Head of House: Visitor to Elizabeth Saunders - widow - Laundress & family.

                    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDA5ODgwNDUuMA..
                    Augusta born 1890 and Sidney 1895 at same address, sorry I meant the family (without Sidney), it would be unusual to move out and then back to the same place 5 years later, unless of course they are friends/relations with those in the house? but is possible.

                    however GallowayLass link looks about right for 1891, just confused!

                    there is also a Gertrude servant in 1911, not sure how you tell if it is her.
                    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 01-01-22, 00:15.
                    Carolyn
                    Family Tree site

                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      James Voller is shown as Sidney's Foster Father on his enlistment record with the RAF in 1914

                      So that shows the link.

                      The full record is on Fold 3, if anyone has a sub to that

                      But there was no official adoption then, so there are unlikely to be any records.

                      It was not uncommon for children to be given to other people to be raised, for reasons we may never find out. It could be because there were too many children, maybe the mother was sick, she couldn't handle him, etc etc

                      I did notice on the 1901 Census that there was a 3 year old Victor Voller.

                      Could there be a family connection between the Murray's and the Vollers?
                      My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                      Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is the Fold3 Record Sylvia found. Ancestry has free Fold days from time to time if no one can view it now..

                        https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDEwMTA4OTguMA..

                        Name: Sidney Murray
                        Gender: Male
                        Age: 19
                        Birth Date: abt 1895
                        Service Date: 29 Dec 1914
                        Service Number: 129,192
                        Next of Kin: James Voller
                        Relation to Airman: Foster Father
                        Kat

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                          This is the Fold3 Record Sylvia found. Ancestry has free Fold days from time to time if no one can view it now..

                          https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...NDEwMTA4OTguMA..

                          Name: Sidney Murray
                          Gender: Male
                          Age: 19
                          Birth Date: abt 1895
                          Service Date: 29 Dec 1914
                          Service Number: 129,192
                          Next of Kin: James Voller
                          Relation to Airman: Foster Father
                          Vera


                          Can't see any additional info re parentage. The address for foster father was Hanwell, London W.

                          Vera

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not getting much of a fix on Harriet Hyde. Note the likely one with Gertrude in 1891. Harriet b 1869. However the Harriet Murray possible mother of (Herbert b 1898 d 1899) who may have died in childbirth gives dob of 1862. Hackney reg.

                            Can see an Eva Murray in the 1911 with g/grandmother and grandmother in Hampshire. G/grandmother Mary Ann Rowland previously Hyde nee Mullett. Grandmother ? Augusta Sampson nee Hyde

                            Looked at a Sigmund Haberer b 1877 Germany father Charles.. Married Miriam Cohen in 1924. Both deceased. Sigmund was a precious stone dealer who with brother Max travelled a lot. Sigmund a/ k/a Sidney is in the 1939 b 1877 living in Chiswick. He dies in 1946 Chiswick

                            Vera
                            Last edited by vera2013; 01-01-22, 12:20.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Vera - Sigmund Haberer b 1877 would be too young(13?) to be the father of Eva and Augusta I think but would be 18 at the birth of Sidney Murray.

                              Eva is with Great grandparents in 1901 and 1911
                              1901
                              https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...1304752&ti d=&pid=&queryId=4eb1f4732d0a85254c1935fbf 9 afbc2a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=5u8-1886118&_phstart=successSource&_gl=1*18no3 7o*_ga*MjMwNTMyNzUwLjE2MzU0MTQ3NTI.*_ga_4PXYE4RLH1 *MTY0MTA2MDk5NC42MS4xLjE2NDEwNjI5NzQuMA..

                              John Rowland 77
                              Mary Ann Rowland 77
                              Augusta Sampson 59
                              Eva Murray 9

                              1911
                              https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...43095634&t id=&pid=&queryId=4eb1f4732d0a85254c1935fbf 9afbc2a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=5u8-1470993&_phstart=successSource

                              Mary Ann Rowland 89 wid
                              Augusta Sampson 69 wid
                              Eva Murray 19 gt granddaughter
                              Kat

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Marriage Cert for John Rowland to Mary Ann Hyde -widow - father Samuel Mullett - deceased farmer.

                                1861 Marriage cert John Rowland to Mary Ann Hyde widow .jpg



                                A Mary Ann Mullett married a Charles John HYDE in March 1841 at Marylebone 1 163

                                1851 census
                                https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=try&h=2190268
                                Charles Hyde 35
                                Mary A Hyde 31
                                Augusta Hyde 9
                                Harriet Hyde 8
                                Charles A Hyde 2 Mo
                                Frederick Hyde 22
                                Isaac Fox 25
                                Esther Mullett 18
                                Kat

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Going by the above then this is Harriet’s birth. n.b. mistranscription of mother’s m.s.
                                  HYDE, HARRIET MUTTETT
                                  GRO Reference: 1842 D Quarter in ST. LUKE CHELSEA Volume 03 Page 34

                                  Baptism
                                  Harriet Hyde
                                  Female
                                  Baptism
                                  12 Feb 1843
                                  Holy Trinity, Chelsea, Kensington and Chelsea, England
                                  Charles Hyde
                                  Mary Ann Hyde
                                  Parish Register

                                  However, this looks like possible death. If correct then this Harriet is not the mother of Augusta Gertrude, Sidney and Eva
                                  Harriett Hyde
                                  30
                                  abt 1844
                                  Jul-Aug-Sep
                                  Edmonton, Middlesex, United Kingdom
                                  Sep 1874
                                  Middlesex, United Kingdom
                                  3a
                                  139
                                  ​​​​​​​
                                  Last edited by GallowayLass; 01-01-22, 20:24.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    There’s also this death which is more likely I think if Harriet had long life but it throws out my 1891 census find of Harriet and a 10 month old Sidney. Unless, did the 1842 born Harriet have an illegitimate daughter also called Harriet born c.1868/9 as per the 2 private ancestry trees?

                                    We could do to hear back from original poster.
                                    Harriet Hyde
                                    80
                                    abt 1844
                                    Oct 1924
                                    [Nov 1924]
                                    [Dec 1924]
                                    Oct-Nov-Dec
                                    Brentford
                                    Middlesex
                                    3a
                                    103
                                    Last edited by GallowayLass; 01-01-22, 20:35.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                                      Vera


                                      Can't see any additional info re parentage. The address for foster father was Hanwell, London W.

                                      Vera
                                      the Thomas J Voller that Sidney was with in 1901 is in Hanwell in 1911, and is Thomas James Voller.
                                      https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...3?pId=39575990
                                      Last edited by cbcarolyn; 01-01-22, 23:29.
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                                        Going by the above then this is Harriet’s birth. n.b. mistranscription of mother’s m.s.
                                        HYDE, HARRIET MUTTETT
                                        GRO Reference: 1842 D Quarter in ST. LUKE CHELSEA Volume 03 Page 34

                                        Baptism
                                        Harriet Hyde
                                        Female
                                        Baptism
                                        12 Feb 1843
                                        Holy Trinity, Chelsea, Kensington and Chelsea, England
                                        Charles Hyde
                                        Mary Ann Hyde
                                        Parish Register

                                        However, this looks like possible death. If correct then this Harriet is not the mother of Augusta Gertrude, Sidney and Eva
                                        Harriett Hyde
                                        30
                                        abt 1844
                                        Jul-Aug-Sep
                                        Edmonton, Middlesex, United Kingdom
                                        Sep 1874
                                        Middlesex, United Kingdom
                                        3a
                                        139
                                        unless I am in a muddle, isn't this Harriet the next generation from Sidney's mother? she is born around 1869, so the daughter of one of these Hydes, or even a cousin?
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

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