Dutch Ancestor help please

[Sandra]

Here is a Johannes Hendrikus Jacobs, born in Zevenaar. It doesn't give a date of birth, but judging by the parents' dates of birth, it could be a fit: https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/s...nten/I2635.php
Only this one appears to be married to Johanna Maria Bartraij, and has different parents' names than found so far.

Hi Cloggie, lovely to hear from you again.
Fantastic info. Thank you x

[GallowayLass]

FF2ECB59-0CF8-4580-8C70-BF0C470B8278.jpeg I have had no luck in finding Otto and Emma on censuses either but I have come across this on ancestry for 1911 census. Annoyingly there only a mention on the summary page and there’s no image for the actual household. Is the image on FMP?

[Sandra]

Oh my goodness, thank you all so very, very much. I am in tears here.

I have just rang my sister to say you lovely lot have broken down my biggest brick wall ever!
I can't begin to express how happy I am. The turning point was finding them on the 1911 census. I really don't know how I could never find them. I had even used the word Charlton many times in my searches.

I hope you don't mind, but I have attached a photo of the man himself. Johannes Hendricus Jacobs. Taken circa 1919. At "The Anglo-American Studio 2, Marine Parade, Southend-on-sea" it says on the reverse.

Also my granddad who was born in Marylebone, lived in various pubs with his parents around central London, but according to my dad, used to travel over to Holland regularly. This photo was taken in 1894 in Rotterdam, aged 11 years old. The date is on the back.

I can't stop smiling.... but annoyed with him for telling the Census Enumerator he came from Rotterdam, so putting me on the wrong path...and whoever wrote in the bible giving e the wrong year of birth.
Thank you all once again xx

[Cloggie]

FF2ECB59-0CF8-4580-8C70-BF0C470B8278.jpeg I have had no luck in finding Otto and Emma on censuses either but I have come across this on ancestry for 1911 census. Annoyingly there only a mention on the summary page and there’s no image for the actual household. Is the image on FMP?

I found Otto and Emma back in Rotterdam in 1887:
https://stadsarchief.rotterdam.nl/ap...miview=viewer2

They seem to have moved around a bit, because it shows that he left Rotterdam for Schiedam in 1901 (without Emma apparently) but returned to Rotterdam in 1904, and then left Rotterdam again (with Emma) in 1905 for Herwen en Aerdt, which is only 7 km from Zevenaar.
Also living with them is a 'nicht', which can mean niece or female cousin, also called Emma.

Otto's occupation between 1887 and 1901 is butcher ('vleeschouwer') but between1904 and 1905 it says 'reiziger in vleeschwaren' which translates literally as 'traveller in meats', so I guess perhaps some sort of travelling meat salesman / traveling butcher???

[ozgirl]

interesting note on the Geneanet tree for Johan Abraham - he converted from Judaism in 1795 just before his marriage to Johanna Louisa Breitenbach.

[Sandra]

interesting note on the Geneanet tree for Johan Abraham - he converted from Judaism in 1795 just before his marriage to Johanna Louisa Breitenbach.

That is so interesting. Thank you

[Sandra]

I have been updating my tree on my laptop since tea time. I still can't believe how you lovely people have helped me this evening.

I have also put my g-g-grandparents Johan Friedrich Jacobs & Friederika Wilhelmina Meussen on my Ancestry tree, quite a few 'hints' have appeared. I'll go through the hints tomorrow after work, and see what they come up with.

I am going to search my g-granddad's brother Otto who came to England, and see if I can find any 2nd or 3rd cousins of mine living in England.

[Cloggie]

I have been updating my tree on my laptop since tea time. I still can't believe how you lovely people have helped me this evening.

I have also put my g-g-grandparents Johan Friedrich Jacobs & Friederika Wilhelmina Meussen on my Ancestry tree, quite a few 'hints' have appeared. I'll go through the hints tomorrow after work, and see what they come up with.

I am going to search my g-granddad's brother Otto who came to England, and see if I can find any 3rd cousins of mine living in England.

Otto and Emma seem to have moved back to Holland in 1887 - see post #44 above.

I've also found both their names in Belgian immigration registers with dates before 1887. See: https://www.openarch.nl/search.php?n...odewijk+Jacobs and https://www.openarch.nl/search.php?n...show=10&sort=4

Herwen en Aerdt, the village they moved to after Rotterdam is right on the German border. So I wonder if they might have ended up in Germany, which is where Emma was from originally.

[cbcarolyn]

Still can't understand why can't find him in 1871, guessing he is on his own as a lodger somewhere so maybe even missed. Glad the wall has been broken for you

[GallowayLass]

I see from his marriage certificate that Johannes’ address was 5 Richmond Bldgs. Dean Street, Soho and Annie was at 7 Dean Street. The two addresses are a 3 minute walk from each other. Richmond Buildings and Richmond Mews are down behind Dean Street. The entrance is the junction opposite where the Soho Theatre is today. Today’s Soho Hotel (4 Richmond Mews) sits in the corner where Richmond Buildings turns into Richmond Mews.

Here’s an interesting article on the history of the streets of Soho which mentions both Richmond Buildings and Richmond Mews named after the carpenter who developed them. Scroll down to paragraph 8. Maybe the reason we can’t find Johannes in 1871 (if he was here that year), is that he lived in his master’s workshops and somehow has been missed.

https://www.thehistoryoflondon.co.uk...pment-of-soho/

[GallowayLass]

If he’s hiding somewhere around that address, this is the enumerator’s book that he ought to be in. He’s not at number 5 Richmond Buildings but it’s interesting to note that the head of household had a Swiss wife and there are a handful of foreign cabinet makers who are lodgers.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discovery...1f69564791886d

I’ve no idea how many enumerators books there will be in the parish but if you enter St Anne in the registration sub district and 1 in the ED that will get you book 1. The link above is to book 8. If you don’t find him in ED1 then replace 1 with 2 and keep working your way through them.
I need shut eye now

[GallowayLass]

If there’s still no joy after all that, then we can reasonably conclude that Johannes arrived in England after census day 2 April 1871 and before 30 November 1872 as the marriage was after Banns so he’d need to have been around for the three Sundays before the ceremony at the least. The marriage date 22 December 1872 was a Sunday - that’s assuming the Banns had 3 clear readings then the marriage the next Sunday. If they got married right after the 3rd reading then Johannes would have had to have been here by the end of the first week in December.
As far as I can see this is the first child to Johannes and Annie - about 9 months to a year after the marriage which is normal enough. Unless, of course, you are aware of Annie having a child before marriage? If was Johannes was the father, then you can narrow down even further when he must have arrived here.

JACOBS, FREDERICK GEORGE	SEARLE
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 34

[Sandra]

If there’s still no joy after all that, then we can reasonably conclude that Johannes arrived in England after census day 2 April 1871 and before 30 November 1872 as the marriage was after Banns so he’d need to have been around for the three Sundays before the ceremony at the least. The marriage date 22 December 1872 was a Sunday - that’s assuming the Banns had 3 clear readings then the marriage the next Sunday. If they got married right after the 3rd reading then Johannes would have had to have been here by the end of the first week in December.
As far as I can see this is the first child to Johannes and Annie - about 9 months to a year after the marriage which is normal enough. Unless, of course, you are aware of Annie having a child before marriage? If was Johannes was the father, then you can narrow down even further when he must have arrived here.

JACOBS, FREDERICK GEORGE	SEARLE
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 34

I know Dean Street well, as I often go to London and have a wander about Soho. We usually go up once a month for a proper Chinese meal, or if we fancy an indian meal, we go to Brick Lane in Aldgate (I was born and brought up in East London, so know the area well)
My theory has been that he came over just after the 1871 census too, or he was already in England, but was visiting Rotterdam during the census.
Yes Frederick was their first child. He went into the pub trade too. Ending up in Croydon.

[Sandra]

These are the family bible pages that started me looking for my family history.
the last entry is in blue biro, of my granddads death date, my dad wrote this as I recognise his writing.
It's the first time I have looked at them for maybe 15 or more years.

As you can see it gave me so much info back in 2002, and saved me hours going through parishes record films.
But now I have just had another look, i can see my g-granddads year of birth was written in another pen. Kicking myself that I didnt question this years ago!

Frederick's death was also written in another pen, but I recognise the handwriting. It was written by my granddad Albert Henry 1883-1957 as I have some old note books of his dated 1922 when he worked for Stepney Council. They are full of his jobs for the week.
So maybe my granddad wrote his fathers year of birth?

[Cloggie]

Lovely to see the pages from the family bible.

I've been looking into Johannes Hendricus Jacobs' parents and siblings to see if I can spot him anywhere else in Holland (without much luck).

It looks like after his father Johan Fridrich Jacobs died in Zevenaar in 1863, his mother Frederika Wilhelmina Meussen went to live with her children in Rotterdam.

In 1876 she is listed inthe same household asher daughter Frederika Wilhelmina Jacobs + daughter's husband Hendrik Johan Ketelaer and their family, as well as her son Otto Lodewijk Jacobs and daughter Maria Johanna Paulina Jacobs.
Frederika Wilhelmina Meussen and Maria Johanna Paulina Jacobs are actually listed twice - first in the same household as Frederika Wilhelmina Jacobs & Hendrik Johan Ketelaer, and below that entry Frederika Wilhelmina Meussen is listed as the head of the household.

Interestingly, the religion of all the Jacobs children is Dutch Reformed, but mother Frederika Wilhelmina Meussen and son-in-law Hendrik Johan Ketelaer are listed as Roman Catholic.

You can see the image here: https://stadsarchief.rotterdam.nl/zo...263&miview=ldt



Here's another entry where Frederika Wilhelmina Meussen is the head of the household, and Otto Lodewijk Jacobs and Maria Johanna Paulina Jacobs are living with her, in Rotterdam.
It shows that Frederika and Maria moved to The Hague in 1877, and that Otto went into military service (no date given).
https://stadsarchief.rotterdam.nl/zo...374&miview=ldt


And here is another one showing her living with son-in-law Hendrik Johan Ketelaer & daughter Frederika Wilhelmina Jacobs and family as well as Otto Lodwijk Jacobs and Maria Johanna Paulina Jacobs.
https://stadsarchief.rotterdam.nl/zo...373&miview=ldt


All 3 entries are in the same street, Hugo de Grootstraat, although it's not clear if it's the same dwelling.

Here are some old images of Hugo de Grootstraat:
https://stadsarchief.rotterdam.nl/zo...%20Grootstraat

[Janet in Yorkshire]

Fascinating thread - well done everyone

[Cloggie]

I think I might have found Johannes Hendricus' signature.
I've just managed to transcribe most of this document (can't make out all of the words) https://permalink.geldersarchief.nl/B2343931A88A440295BC27D4B391D5E6
If the image doesn't load from this link, click on 'Persoon Memorie van Successie' and then on the images of the documents and go to image number 415.

I've also attached an image of his death certificate.

The signatories are Frederika Wilhelmina Meussen and Hendrik Jacobs. There don't seem to be any other children with Hendrik/Hendricus in their name, so I think is probably Johannes Hendricus. Hendrik's occupation is difficult to make out but I think it says schrijnwerker, which means cabinetmaker.
So from this document, we know that he was a cabinetmaker in Zevenaar in 1863.


This is what I could make out in Dutch:

Memorie van aangifte der nalatenschap van Johan Fridrich Jacobs in leven echtgenoot van Frederica Wilhelmina Meeussen gewoond hebbende te Zevenaar en aldaar overladen den 28 februarij 1800 drie en zestig.
De ondergetekende Frederica Wilhelmina Meeussen, zonder beroep woenende te Zevenaar in de hoedanigheid van moeder en wettige voogdesse over hare minderjarige kinderen bij bovengenomde haren echtgenoot in echt verwekt genaamd 1: Henriette, 2. Frederica Wilhelmina, 3. Elisabeth, 4. Otto Lodewijk, 5. Maria Johanna Paulina Jacobs en <?> Hendrik Jacobs schrijnwerker wonende te Zevenaar, ten deze woonplaats kiezende ten sterf huize voormeld.
Verklaren:
Dat op den 20 februarij 1863 te Zevenaar is overleden Johan Fridrich Jacobs tot zijne eenige erfenamen nalatende de vijf bovengenoemde minderjarige en den<?> tweeden aangever tenevens<?> Johan Fredericus Jacobs slagter te Dordrecht, en Johanna Louisa Jacobs huisvrouw van Willem George Frederik Bredé ambtenaar te Hetterden<?>/Rotterdam<?>, alle kinderen van den overledene en zijne wettige erfgenamen, dat de overledene gene onroerende zaken heeft nagelaten en
dat door zijn overlijden geen fidei commis of vruchtgebruik noch periodieke uitkering is overgegaan of vervallen.

Gedaan te Zevenaar 22 Sept 1863


And a rough translation into English:

Declaration of the estate of Johan Fridrich Jacobs, late husband of Frederica Wilhelmina Meeussen, residing in Zevenaar and deceased there on 28 February 1800 sixty-three.
The undersigned Frederica Wilhelmina Meeussen, without occupation living in Zevenaar in the capacity of mother and legal guardian of her minor children by the above-named her husband in marriage named 1: Henriette, 2. Frederica Wilhelmina, 3. Elisabeth, 4. Otto Lodewijk, 5. Maria Johanna Paulina Jacobs and <?> Hendrik Jacobs cabinetmaker residing in Zevenaar, choosing his address for the purpose of this document at the aforementioned home of the deceased.
Declare:
That on 20 February 1863 Johan Fridrich Jacobs died in Zevenaar leaving behind his sole heirs the five above-mentioned minors and the<?> second declarant and also Johan Fredericus Jacobs butcher residing in Dodrecht, and Johanna Louisa Jacobs wife of Willem George Frederik Bredé civil servant residing in Hetterden<?>/Rotterdam<?>, all children of the deceased and his legal heirs, that the deceased did not leave any immovable property and
that no fidei commis or usufruct, or periodical benefit, was transferred or lapsed as a result of his death.

Executed in Zevenaar 22 Sept 1863

[GallowayLass]

Cloggie That’s brilliant work 👍

[ozgirl]

I have found Johannes Hendricus in the registers for 1850/1860. It gives a little bit of info about his travels. As far as I can work out he went to Arnhem on 2 May 1859, returning to Zevenaar on 17 Sep 1860. A month later he went to Rotterdam, 13 Oct 1860, and then came back again on 15 November 1861.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G93G-NJG9?i=307&cc=2018408

[ozgirl]

Here is the family in 1860/1870. It says that Johannes Henricus left on 30 April 1862 but I can't work out where he went - maybe to Dordrecht as he was there when his father died the following year.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L93G-DH57?i=169&cc=2018408