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Marriage mystery!!!!

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  • Marriage mystery!!!!

    Hello, I was wondering if you guys could help me... I have lost count of the amount of hours I have been searching for this answer.

    My great grandmother Gweneth Edith Groom (also spelt Gwyneth, Gwenneth, Gwenyth) was born in 1912 in Wandsworth, London. She married Alfred Currie Motson (also spelt Matson) in 1936 in Surrey. They had one son together born 1941 (still living). Gweneth and Alfred divorced and both went on to remarry, Alfred married Monica Mary Evelyn Wilkinson in 1953 and then Gweneth married Vincent Smith - or did she?

    I cannot for the life of me find a marriage between a Gwenneth, Gwyneth, Gweneth, Gwenyth Groom, Matson or Motson and Vincent Smith (I've even tried searching with the name Edith) Now the surname Smith is like searching for a needle in a haystack but I just don't know where to look next. When Gweneth's mother died, her probate states that she left her effects to her daughter Gweneth Smith, married woman. Gweneth and Vincent (?) Smith had a son together (who is still alive now, born 1949, he has asked me to conduct this research for him, he had a brain injury many years ago and has suffered memory loss as a result, so I am unable to ask him any further questions, he is also estranged from the rest of the family).

    The address that Gweneth and Alfred were living at in 1939 is the address that Gweneth and Vincent(?)'s son was born and brought up in.

    Gweneth and Vincent divorced when their son was approx 3 years old.

    Is anyone able to shed some light on this please... I have a tree on Ancestry (and subscription), I also have a subscription to Find My Past.

    **EDIT: Mr Smith's name may not be Vincent, as mentioned, his son has since suffered a brain injury and has only vague recollection of his father and did not see him much after his parents divorce. The surname is Smith, as this is the surname Gweneth and "Vincent's" son has.

    Thank you
    Georgia Mae Simeone

  • #2
    The son's full birth cert will confirm his fathers name?

    The only thing I can come up with is that Vincent was already married so not able to marry Gweneth, but they lived together as though they were man and wife. I guess that the other way you can come at it would be to seek the divorce papers from 1952? you would need to apply to the court in the town where they lived.
    just had a quick look around and found this:

    https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order

    Julie
    They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

    .......I find dead people

    Comment


    • #3
      where did they live? have you found them on the reg of electors? that would confirm fathers name and also the birth cert will have fathers name.
      Last edited by cbcarolyn; 20-10-21, 09:30.
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

      Comment


      • #4
        I did have a look around and not sure if I have found the right person, did she die in Seaton in 1993. There is a will and maybe worth getting that for £1.50 she might mention other family members, do you know when her husband died?

        I found the 1939 entry and can see that on there she has had Smith added to the register which I am sure would be following an official record of her marriage, so think there must be a marriage somewhere, or maybe an official change of name. Not that I can find it.

        His birth cert will have his fathers name and also the occupation, which might help find the marriage.
        Carolyn
        Family Tree site

        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
          The son's full birth cert will confirm his fathers name?

          The only thing I can come up with is that Vincent was already married so not able to marry Gweneth, but they lived together as though they were man and wife. I guess that the other way you can come at it would be to seek the divorce papers from 1952? you would need to apply to the court in the town where they lived.
          just had a quick look around and found this:

          https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order
          Thank you! Yes, I am trying to get a copy of his birth certificate as he cannot remember where this is.

          Ah, good point - I didn't think of that. I will have a look into getting the divorce papers. Thank you for your help.
          Georgia Mae Simeone

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
            where did they live? have you found them on the reg of electors? that would confirm fathers name and also the birth cert will have fathers name.
            They lived in Hampshire. I cannot seem to find Gweneth on any electoral registers! She is a complete mystery
            Georgia Mae Simeone

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
              I did have a look around and not sure if I have found the right person, did she die in Seaton in 1993. There is a will and maybe worth getting that for £1.50 she might mention other family members, do you know when her husband died?

              I found the 1939 entry and can see that on there she has had Smith added to the register which I am sure would be following an official record of her marriage, so think there must be a marriage somewhere, or maybe an official change of name. Not that I can find it.

              His birth cert will have his fathers name and also the occupation, which might help find the marriage.
              Yes, that's her! I have purchased that, but it didn't seem to show me much. I will have another look. I don't know when her husband died, as when they divorced their son no longer had contact with him.

              I'm glad I'm not the only one that couldn't find the marriage.... I thought I was going mad!!! It is very odd..
              Georgia Mae Simeone

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by georgiasimeone View Post

                Thank you! Yes, I am trying to get a copy of his birth certificate as he cannot remember where this is.

                Ah, good point - I didn't think of that. I will have a look into getting the divorce papers. Thank you for your help.
                You can order one direct from the GRO b/cert that is.. for £11 [I think it is]

                it sure is a bit of an odd one!
                Julie
                They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                .......I find dead people

                Comment


                • #9
                  I found this earlier but I wasn't sure just what to make of it!

                  Marriages Sep 1949
                  Humphreys Arthur S Spouse Warren Watford 4b 825
                  Panter Dorothy G Spouse Smith Watford 4b 825
                  Smith Vincent H Spouse Luck Watford 4b 825
                  Warren Doris M Spouse Humphreys Watford 4b 825

                  I did wonder if Dorothy was Dorothy Gwenneth? BUT I can't understand where the 'Luck' name comes in?

                  Julie
                  They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                  .......I find dead people

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This birth is on Freebmd, so can be ordered from GRO, using the volume & page numbers.

                    (son's forenames removed as he is still alive)
                    Smith xxxxxx Groom Aldershot 6b 27

                    My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

                    Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post
                      I found this earlier but I wasn't sure just what to make of it!

                      Marriages Sep 1949
                      Humphreys Arthur S Spouse Warren Watford 4b 825
                      Panter Dorothy G Spouse Smith Watford 4b 825
                      Smith Vincent H Spouse Luck Watford 4b 825
                      Warren Doris M Spouse Humphreys Watford 4b 825

                      I did wonder if Dorothy was Dorothy Gwenneth? BUT I can't understand where the 'Luck' name comes in?
                      Its a transcribing error on FreeBMD. If you look at the image for Vincent H Smith the spouse is Panter, but the transcriber has mixed it up with an entry for Vincent R Smith who married someone with the surname Luck in Leicester - correction now submitted.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by teasie View Post

                        Its a transcribing error on FreeBMD. If you look at the image for Vincent H Smith the spouse is Panter, but the transcriber has mixed it up with an entry for Vincent R Smith who married someone with the surname Luck in Leicester - correction now submitted.
                        Ahh that's brill! thanks Teasie
                        Julie
                        They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                        .......I find dead people

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks all for your help!! I am going to order the birth certificate, the will only states Gwynneth's two sons. No indication to a husband, but her surname is Smith on the will. I have wondered if perhaps she married again before she married Mr Smith? and maybe that's why I cannot find a marriage between a Motson (various spellings) and a Smith.
                          Georgia Mae Simeone

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by georgiasimeone View Post
                            Thanks all for your help!! I am going to order the birth certificate, the will only states Gwynneth's two sons. No indication to a husband, but her surname is Smith on the will. I have wondered if perhaps she married again before she married Mr Smith? and maybe that's why I cannot find a marriage between a Motson (various spellings) and a Smith.
                            That could be a reason yes.

                            I had a thought... what if they married abroad?
                            Julie
                            They're coming to take me away haha hee hee..........

                            .......I find dead people

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Once you have birth cert should be able to confirm fathers name and his occupation. Maybe they did marry abroad, was he in the army and posted abroad? Do you know when did she divorce from Arthur Matson?
                              Last edited by cbcarolyn; 24-10-21, 08:35.
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I have thought about a marriage abroad. I know her son from Mr Motson, went to live with her parents when she married Mr Smith. I'm not sure when she divorced Mr Motson. As far as I know, Mr Smith was a bus driver. I'm going to order the birth certificate now. Thanks for all of your help.
                                Georgia Mae Simeone

                                Comment

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