Did Ellen marry both brothers?

[Barbara Dodds]

Was it unlikely, or even illegal, for a man to marry his brother's widow in 1832? I'm going round in circles on this one and really just need someone to (a) confirm my logic and (b) find me a likely birth for Ellen. The other thing I should say is that the parish is known as Cuckney, Norton Cuckney or Norton depending which records you look at



In 1851 In the village of Cuckney I have the following family:

William Marlow b 1793 Cuckney Nottinghamshire Gardener. His wife is Ellen Marlow b 1800 Mansfield Nottinghamshire. They have three children with them Selina b 1837, George b 1839 and William Henry b 1842 all born in Cuckney Nottinghamshire.

Tracking back to the 1841 census I have William Marlow b 1796; wife Ellen b 1801, children Elizabeth b 1826, Harriet b 1835, Selina b 1837, George b 1839 and William b 1841 all in Nottinghamshire

I have a marriage for William Marlow on 15 October 1832 to Ellen Marlow in Cuckney. No that isn't a typing error that is what the parish marriage entry says.Elizabeth looks to have been born before that marriage so I tried to find out who her parents might be.

Elizabeth Marlow married Joseph Gabbitas on 6 November 1843. In 1851 they are living in the neighbouring parish of Langwith with her date and place of birth being given as 1824 in Norton


I have found a baptism for an Elizabeth Marlow in Cuckney on 3rd October 1824 with father Joseph Marlow blacksmith and mother Ellen so think this could be the same person.

There is a marriage for Joseph Marlow and Ellen Nuthall in Mansfield on 26 December 1822. There is also a burial for Joseph Marlow at Cuckney on 10 August 1828.

I haven't found a birth for either an Ellen Marlow or an Ellen Nutthall in 1824 in Manfield but that could just be I've not looked in the right place yet


I'm wondering if Ellen the widow of Joseph Marlow was the Ellen Marlow who married William Marlow in 1832 and she used her married name? To make it more interesting William did have a younger brother called Joseph


I do hope the question makes sense at the end of a rather convoluted post


Thank you in advance for any comments and/or pointers

[kylejustin]

Do the marriage records state marital condition for ellen? Or father for elizabeth when she married? Wittnesses?

generally agree you are on the right track. Technically marrying in laws was taboo, but it happened.

[Barbara Dodds]

Thank you Kyle. It's reassuring to know that it does look likely

I've only seen the parish marriage transcript for Elizabeth and there is no other detail on there. I will have to get the civil marriage certificate to confirm

For the Joseph Marlow Ellen Nuthall marriage they were married by banns. She is a spinster and witnesses are Robert Purtin and Elizabeth Nutthall

For the Ellen Marlow William Marlow marriage they are married by banns with witnesses John Marlow and Walter Grey. No marital condition given

So my best solution on that would be to investigate the witness. By 1841 there is are only two John Marlow in the village, one born 1837 and his father born 1808 who I will try and trace back. William's father was also called John so that is another possibility

Typing this reply out has also helped me see what else I need to look at so thank you for the inspiration as well

[grumpy]

My great grandfather married his brothers widow in the late 1850’s, in Jersey C.I. where the same laws as England probably applied.

[Barbara Dodds]

Thanks David

So it did happen

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I have several examples of it happening. Sometimes the unmarried sister of the deceased wife went to housekeep for the widower and took over all "wifely" duties, lol. I read an article which said that although illegal, these marriages were often conducted in the registrar's office of a nearby town. The couple came back home and life carried on as normal; the pair attended the local church, the vicar baptised any subsequent children, although he had stopped short at breaking the law by marrying them.
In your case, a young widow with a child could have gone to housekeep for her brother in law.

[Lin Fisher]

As the others have said. This is more than possible. I have a few that married the sister/brother after the first partner died.

Just saying Hello to you as well Barbara. I have Gabbitas in my tree but back further than you are and from Sutton Cum Lound. Not a million miles away.

[teasie]

My original post got the brothers & sisters muddled up. Try again!

Marrying your deceased brother's widow was against church law (prohibited degrees of affinity), but was not outlawed by statute until the Marriage Act 1835.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/54694fa6e4b0eaec4530f99d/t/577cf1fa46c3c4118038de3a/1467806202887/Marriage+Act+1835.pdf

[Macbev]

From what I have been able to gather, the prohibition was aimed at a man marrying his wife's sister. Not able to work out if there was a prohibition against marrying a brother's widow, but there was an Act of Parliament to allow this in 1921.

Church law frowned upon the practice of marrying a deceased wife's sister but it does not seem to have become enacted as parliamentary law until 1836. Apparently, one such example was Jane Austen's brother Charles, who married his deceased wife's sister in 1820. The act was changed in 1907
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceas...riage_Act_1907

I'm not quite sure why the Church frowned upon the practice as the O.T. actually made it an obligation to raise up children on a deceased brother's widow if I remember correctly. And I am absolutely sure people did exactly as they chose and kept it all quiet. After all, Henry VIII did exactly the same thing, even if he did wish later that he had not.

[Barbara Dodds]

Thank you all for your input. A few interesting articles and comments there

Macbev now you mention it I think that it is in the O. T. too

Lin Fisher There are still Gabbitas living in Retford and the surrounding villages. I used to work with one of them and I may have gone to school with another

[Barbara Dodds]

As the others have said. This is more than possible. I have a few that married the sister/brother after the first partner died.

Just saying Hello to you as well Barbara. I have Gabbitas in my tree but back further than you are and from Sutton Cum Lound. Not a million miles away.

They didn't tie back to a Worksop family did they?

[Lin Fisher]

Sorry Barbara, not as far as I know. Elizabeth Cook who was married to John Gabitas and widowed then married my direct ancestor John Metheringham. John died in Sloswick Hospital East Retford and she died in East Retford. A bit tenuous bit have her down as Gabitas on marriage and the names of her children from first Marriage.

[Darksecretz]

Right, I have found an Ellen Nutter b.1800 Mansfield ss Peter/Paul bapt 19.02.1801 to John & Patience Nutter

Elizabeth Nuttall bapt ss Peter/Paul Mansfield 09.05.1804 to John & Patience Nuttall so this is looking good. I'm just going to have a look for a marriage.

[Darksecretz]

John Nuttall marries Patience Marshall 16.03.1800 @ Ss Peters/Pauls Mansfield.

You do know that Mansfield library is open on a Sunday don't you??

[Barbara Dodds]

Ooo thank you Julie


Lin Fisher that's a shame as I'd just been handed some information that would have been of interest

[Darksecretz]

Ooo thank you Julie


Lin Fisher that's a shame as I'd just been handed some information that would have been of interest

I'm not sure what happens to Patience, I can't see anymore children born to John & Patience, but I do see two marriages for Patience Nuttalls @ st Peters/Pauls Mansfield.

[Darksecretz]

Presumably you know that Joseph was 30yrs old when he died.

I'm still looking to see if I can spot Patience a bit later on

[Darksecretz]

There is a marriage of Patience Nuttall to Henry Randall 22.01.1838 @ ss Peters/Pauls Mansfield.
and another Patience Nuttall to Beedham Shippam 28.12.1864 @ ss PPs Mansfield.
ooooo there are a LOT of children to John & Patience.

would you like a list of them?