Names on marriage certificate

[Karamazov]

I think all the information on these marriages has been filled in by the minister, rather than signed by bride, groom, witnesses and there is therefore the possibility of mistranscription, as the groom was born in Germany.
I’m interested in the groom’s info on the 2nd marriage on this page. How do you read his and his father’s names?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....58/8251685.pdf

Note: The groom was born in Germany circa 1824 if you go by age 77 in 1901 census, circa 1837 if you go by age 69 on 1907 death cert. (info supplied by his son William Henry)
In later life he was known as Saffer Henry - 1901 Irish census, 1907 death and burial, plus this is the name recorded on his son, William Henry’s, marriage cert.
I’d always assumed his name was anglicised, but had no idea what his original surname might have been. I’ve only just found his marriage today but I’m not totally convinced by how the minister has recorded his surname here.

Any bright ideas for finding out more about him and his father?

Thanks,
Christine

[kylejustin]

Groom looks like "saffer harderer" and his father looks like "hether harderer". Both clockmaker's.

could there be a jewish element?

[Karamazov]

Groom looks like "saffer harderer" and his father looks like "hether harderer". Both clockmaker's.

could there be a jewish element?

Thanks, yes, that’s how I read the names. Neither first names nor surnames sound very Germanic to me!
As for a Jewish element - nothing suggests so - it’s a Presbyterian marriage and his religion is recorded as church of Ireland in 1901 Ireland census.
A random google before I posted threw up an Anton Harder who was a clockmaker in the Triberg/Black Forest area of Germany. No idea if there’s any connection or if it’s a red herring.

Christine

[Darksecretz]

Groom looks like "saffer harderer" and his father looks like "hether harderer". Both clockmaker's.

could there be a jewish element?

That's what I see too Kyle.

[GallowayLass]

Google seems sure it’s a name of German origin right enough. Could it have originally been spelled Sesar / Cesar / Cezar or some similar variant? Or perhaps the two central s letters could have been written as a scharfes s aka an Erzett.
I’m stuck with Nerther / Nether though.

[Karamazov]

After finding the Ballymena marriage I then looked for the birth of their son William (he married in to my family). I found his birth in 1867 registered as William John Headerer.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03501/2286603.pdf

(At least, I think this is him although it is a bit earlier than anticipated - from his age in 1901 and age at death I had an estimated year of birth of about 1869/1870. I can’t find him with his wife and children in 1911 so think he must have been away from home on census day.

Also found another son John, registered as John Henry in 1872.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03226/2182434.pdf

Saffer and Eliza are not part of my tree but I’m just digging away at them again as I was contacted by one of their descendants via Ancestry the other day. (He is a great grandson of William Henry and his wife Margaret Jane Hoey which is where my interest comes in...)

Christine

[kylejustin]

The first names don't sound typically germanic, and sound more like surnames, which in itself is odd. In my experience, surnames for christian names isn't very germanic.

i know jewish migration from russia and it's sphere of influence was a thing during the 19th century, and do wonder if he may have been jewish or of jewish family originally.

[Karamazov]

The first names don't sound typically germanic, and sound more like surnames, which in itself is odd. In my experience, surnames for christian names isn't very germanic.

i know jewish migration from russia and it's sphere of influence was a thing during the 19th century, and do wonder if he may have been jewish or of jewish family originally.

The names are definitely puzzlers - more often than not I can come up with some sort of related or anglicised name, whether from German or Jewish. But nothing springs to mind for Hether. Possibly Häderer (if such a surname exists) for Headerer. Perhaps a DNA test might resolve the question of Jewish origins?

Christine

[kylejustin]

I did see an episode of wdytya (aus or american) at some stage, and it was about irish jews. They were there quite early from russia from memory, like 1850's. Which was surprising.

i think DNA is a great idea, as it may show which part of germany the line is from. Maybe they can find out if watchmakers were imported i suppose from germany at that period?