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    Lost in Plymouth

    Can anyone help me with Ellen and her daughter Priscilla, please?

    On the 1911 census, Ellen is living in Derby and is widowed - her husband Michael Fleming/Flemming/Flemings etc died in Derby in 1907 - and Ellen dies in 1931. Although none of them seem to be living with her, she has listed all her children

    Ancestry.co.uk - 1911 England Census

    which might not have pleased the census enumerators, but it made me happy!

    Anyway, her eldest two were listed as b. in Plymouth. I have found Alfred's birth (MMN Ball) there in 1878, but not Priscilla's, which would have been c1875/6. The rest of the children (Lucy, William, Mary Elizabeth, Mary Ann and James) also have Ball as their MMN. Ellen's husband Michael (b. Derby 1855) seems to have been in the Royal Artillery and was stationed at Devonport until his discharge in 1876 (presumably where he and Ellen met). The only marriage I can find in Devon for a Michael Fleming (+ other spellings) is in 1876 to an Ellen Jayes, but I can't connect Ellen Jayes to Ellen Ball, nor can I find a birth of a Priscilla abt 1875 with Fleming (+ other spellings), Jayes or Ball as her surname.

    From the 1881 census, Ellen's year of birth is 1853; 1891 is 1858; 1901 is 1854 and 1911 is 1859. I've not been able to find her on the 1861 or 1871 census.

    Can anyone offer any suggestions to help find Ellen in 1861 and 1871 which would reveal her surname?

    Priscilla isn't with her mother on the 1881 census (by which time Michael, Ellen and baby Alfred are in Derby), so I'm wondering if she's with one of Ellen's relatives somewhere. The only mention of her is on the 1911 census she is said to be married.

    Any help/pointers/etc gratefully received.

    Thanks
    STG
    Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

    #2
    This is a possibility - she may have been a bit older than her mother stated and born out of wedlock. The reg district is East Stonehouse. I looked that up on GENUKI and it's just to the right of Royal William Dockyard.
    BALL, PRISCILLA -
    GRO Reference: 1872 D Quarter in EAST STONEHOUSE Volume 05B Page 299
    First name(s) Ellen
    Last name Ball
    Marriage quarter 4
    Marriage year 1873
    Registration month -
    MarriageFinder™ Ellen Ball married one of these people
    Joseph Jeyes, James Chadder
    District East Stonehouse
    District number -
    County Devon
    Country England
    Volume 5B
    Volume as transcribed 5B
    Page number 567

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
      This is a possibility - she may have been a bit older than her mother stated and born out of wedlock. The reg district is East Stonehouse. I looked that up on GENUKI and it's just to the right of Royal William Dockyard.
      BALL, PRISCILLA -
      GRO Reference: 1872 D Quarter in EAST STONEHOUSE Volume 05B Page 299
      First name(s) Ellen
      Last name Ball
      Marriage quarter 4
      Marriage year 1873
      Registration month -
      MarriageFinder™ Ellen Ball married one of these people
      Joseph Jeyes, James Chadder
      District East Stonehouse
      District number -
      County Devon
      Country England
      Volume 5B
      Volume as transcribed 5B
      Page number 567
      [Rhetorical question] Now, why couldn't I find that!

      There is a birth in 1872 of a Priscilla Ball in E.Stonehouse, with no MMN, so I suspect that could be her. It looks as if she married in 1898 when she gave her father's name as George Ball, but that could be either an invention or, perhaps her Grandfather's name (if he was the one who brought her up). Swooshing off to see if I can find Priscilla on any census records now and, who knows, that might even lead me to Ellen.

      I've had a quick look for the death of a Joseph Jeyes (various spellings), between 1873-1876, but no luck so far, well not in Devon.

      Thanks so much.

      Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

      Comment


        #4
        Well, I've found an 8yo Priscilla Ball on the 1881 census living in E.Stonehouse as a "Boarder". Other housemates include six women listed as "prostitutes". Ooo er!

        Ancestry.co.uk - 1881 England Census
        Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

        Comment


          #5
          Ooo er! right enough. There’s another in the house next door but one.

          Never mind, you’re in good company This is the 1881 census for my 2x Gt Aunt Prudence not very appropriately named LOL.

          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=19133456

          She says she’s unmarried but is listed by her 1st married surname. The marriage didn’t last long (he died 1882 in the next town). The lady shown as her domestic servant is actually her widowed mother who died two years after this census. The other woman in her house, Prudence knows her name and where she was born but nothing else. The two men in the house, she knows nowt about. All three are listed as ‘visitors’. “Aye, right…” as we would would say. The house was slap bang in the middle of Hanley’s red light district
          Prudence was always very inaccurate about her age. Even on her death cert., her second husband didn’t know how old she really was. That marriage didn’t last long either. Her 1st husband was a widower 18 years older than her and the 2nd husband was a bachelor 19 years younger. 2nd husband remarried very soon after Prudence died.
          We can only conclude that she was running a house of ill repute LOL

          Comment


            #6
            ooh err, good trade with all those sailors. Sad that she was there age 8 though.
            Carolyn
            Family Tree site

            Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
            Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

            Comment


              #7
              I found this notice in the paper, not sure if you have it:

              Derby Daily Telegraph - Wednesday 02 September 1931

              Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 22.16.56.png
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                I found this notice in the paper, not sure if you have it:

                Derby Daily Telegraph - Wednesday 02 September 1931

                Screenshot 2021-07-19 at 22.16.56.png
                Oh thanks, I hadn't seen that actually. No mention of Priscilla, I see. Maybe she'd died before her mother?

                Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                Comment


                  #9
                  I was thinking that, as other names seem to fit with the children. I can see that a Priscilla Ball married a George Taylor in 1898, and they are on census together on 1901, but can't spot them in 1911, there is a george taylor at sea, and is married with same birth town, not sure where Priscilla is hiding.
                  Carolyn
                  Family Tree site

                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The only Priscilla Taylor I can see in 1911 is this one. Age and birthplace right, married for the correct length of time and wife scored out and replaced by Head BUT on GRO index all of the children have mms WEST not BALL.
                    Emily Priscilla Taylor
                    39
                    1872
                    Head
                    Female
                    Plymouth, Devon
                    Cann Hall
                    England
                    25 Trumpington Road, Forest Gate E
                    188
                    South Leyton
                    Married 17 years
                    9622
                    8 persons in house

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                      The only Priscilla Taylor I can see in 1911 is this one. Age and birthplace right, married for the correct length of time and wife scored out and replaced by Head BUT on GRO index all of the children have mms WEST not BALL.
                      Emily Priscilla Taylor
                      39
                      1872
                      Head
                      Female
                      Plymouth, Devon
                      Cann Hall
                      England
                      25 Trumpington Road, Forest Gate E
                      188
                      South Leyton
                      Married 17 years
                      9622
                      8 persons in house
                      That's the only one I could find. Not sure it fits? Although can't find her on 1901 - so maybe...Not found any obvious on births either, but I concentrated on Plymouth and Derby. There was a birth Taylor/Ball in Plymouth found her in 1911 not with a Priscilla as a mother.
                      Last edited by cbcarolyn; 20-07-21, 21:41.
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Maybe this is her

                        Name: Emily Priscilla West
                        Gender: Female
                        Marriage Age: 24
                        Birth Date: abt 1870
                        Marriage Place: Stratford, St John, Essex, England
                        Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1894
                        Father: William Reuben West
                        Spouse: Charles Taylor
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                          #13
                          think I have found her
                          TAYLOR, VIOLET PRISCILLA BALL
                          GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in MEDWAY Volume 02A Page 768
                          1939 register with Violet

                          ​​​​​​Name: Priscilla Taylor
                          Gender: Female
                          Marital Status: Widow
                          Birth Date: 26 Oct 1872
                          Residence Year: 1939
                          Address: Denton Court
                          Residence Place: Dover, Kent, England
                          Occupation: Private Means
                          Line Number: 39
                          Schedule Number: 68
                          Sub Schedule Number: 8
                          Enumeration District: DJFN
                          Borough: Dover

                          death
                          ​​​​​​NamePriscilla Taylor
                          Death Age99
                          Birth Date26 Oct 1872
                          Registration DateJan 1972
                          Registration QuarterJan-Feb-Mar
                          Registration districtChatham
                          Inferred CountyKent
                          Volume5fPage699

                          there is also a will

                          1911
                          https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...03954_0125_03?
                          Last edited by cbcarolyn; 20-07-21, 22:04.
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Well done you No wonder mother was hidden with ancestry transcribing her as Lincilla.
                            FMP has it correct though.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I think this is the death of Ivy

                              First name(s) Ivy Florence
                              Last name Taylor
                              Gender Female
                              Age at death 33
                              Birth year 1904
                              Died at Died at Royal Northern Hospital. Removed from/Address St Augustine
                              Burial year 1937
                              Burial date 16 Jun 1937
                              Place Gillingham, Grange Road & Woodland Road Cemeteries
                              County Kent
                              Country England

                              and Violet I assume - there is also a baptism transcription on FMP - her and her Mum reached good ages
                              Name: Violet Priscilla Taylor
                              Death Age: 98
                              Birth Date: 27 Dec 1906
                              Registration Date: Mar 2005
                              Registration District: Medway
                              Inferred County: Kent
                              Register Number: B50A
                              District and Subdistrict: 561/1B
                              Entry Number: 19

                              Mystery why Priscilla not mentioned in newspaper article though, maybe she couldn't/didn't go.
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                                #16
                                This is George TAYLOR's birth

                                TAYLOR, GEORGE ATTEY
                                GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 15

                                His baptism

                                George Taylor
                                Male
                                11 May 1873
                                Saint Paul, Elswick, Northumberland, England
                                David Taylor
                                Grace Longstaff
                                1068650

                                His mother's birth

                                ATTEY, GRACE LONGSTAFF LONGSTAFF
                                GRO Reference: 1841 D Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 261

                                His parents' marriage (can't find an image)

                                First name(s) Grace L
                                Last name Attey
                                Sex Female
                                Birth year -
                                Marriage year 1864
                                Marriage date 19 Oct 1864
                                Place Hendon, St Paul
                                Spouse's first name(s) David
                                Spouse's last name Taylor
                                Spouse's birth year -
                                County Durham
                                Country England
                                Document type Parish Registers
                                Record set Durham Marriages
                                Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

                                George's first appearance on a census 1881 (don't see him 1891) His mother is traceable 1891 and 1901. She is married but no sign of her husband. Maybe he is away from home on two census nights in a row?

                                1881 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  UPDATED George's death now certain have found probate.

                                  George Taylor
                                  59
                                  abt 1873
                                  Oct 1932
                                  [Nov 1932]
                                  [Dec 1932]
                                  Oct-Nov-Dec
                                  Medway
                                  Kent
                                  2a
                                  955

                                  Taylor Probate.JPG

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    David Taylor 1841 census at 3 months old

                                    Ancestry.co.uk - 1841 England Census

                                    and his birth

                                    TAYLOR, DAVID SMITH
                                    GRO Reference: 1841 M Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION Volume 24 Page 262

                                    High time I was in beddy byes - nighty night

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Wow, you've been with busy and successful with Priscilla while I've ben searching for Ellen, and I think I've found her.

                                      The birth registration of an Ellen Ball in Q4 1853 in E.Stonehouse has a MMN of Mugridge; there's a marriage in Q1 1842 in Stoke Damerel between a Thomas Ball and an Elizabeth Moggridge. I found Elizabeth on the 1851 census in Stonehouse with two small children

                                      Ancestry.co.uk - 1851 England Census

                                      where it seems that Thomas was away at sea. Using Elizabeth's approx age and place of birth, I found her (with now at home husband) with one of the same two children plus a 7yo daughter "Helena"

                                      Ancestry.co.uk - 1861 England Census

                                      which is probably about as close as I can get.

                                      Thanks soooo much for your help with this.

                                      STG


                                      Always looking for Goodwins in Berkshire.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        good work GallowayLass you were up late :

                                        SmallTownGirl no problem, like a challenge. Was hoping as they lived long lives I could find something in the paper, but didn't find anything. Lovely to see her live so long after a bad start too.
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

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