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  • sookie23
    replied
    I tend to believe Gerald was born in Boston to Elizabeth she was unmarried returned to Ireland to her catholic family and took on the name of Elizabeth Carroll. I'm sure her sisters in Boston would have stuck to her side of the story if ever questioned by her parents. Her only lie being she married Geralds father when in USA. Perhaps his father did die, that's something I've still to look at. At the end of the day it still seems the DNA is leading to Doris side being untrue regarding Gerald being the biological father of her chid. Could look it it differently as he was the father to her as he supported her and her chid.

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  • ozgirl
    replied
    Originally posted by sookie23 View Post
    Looked up the link in Wills and probate and it puts her as a widow, so if that's the right Sarah its not her as Joseph was alive and kicking.

    I'm not convinced the Sadie Carroll is the right track. There is no Gerald on the UK birth register that matches his date of birth and believe me I've tried. the only match I've ever seen is the Condon one Vera found.

    The address with the Kinsella name is enough for me also to say we are right along with what we have found. We have tracked and traced the families movements.

    Elizabeth going as a Carroll until she married isn't news to me Doris did the same went as a Mrs Carroll so did she get the idea from Elizabeth, who knows.
    The Will is for Sarah Carroll who died in August 1932 in Middlesex, not the one in Manchester.

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  • ozgirl
    replied
    Don't know if this has been posted already - public tree on ancestry which gives Sarah Kinsella's birth as 1902 in Roscommon, Ireland.

    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tr...63338933/facts

    Leave a comment:


  • sookie23
    replied
    Looked up the link in Wills and probate and it puts her as a widow, so if that's the right Sarah its not her as Joseph was alive and kicking.

    I'm not convinced the Sadie Carroll is the right track. There is no Gerald on the UK birth register that matches his date of birth and believe me I've tried. the only match I've ever seen is the Condon one Vera found.

    The address with the Kinsella name is enough for me also to say we are right along with what we have found. We have tracked and traced the families movements.

    Elizabeth going as a Carroll until she married isn't news to me Doris did the same went as a Mrs Carroll so did she get the idea from Elizabeth, who knows.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    there is a death of a Sarah Carroll in South Manchester 1932 - which is the area that now includes Bucklow

    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...4&pId=24982583
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 10-06-21, 22:29.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    I am sure it's was mentioned on here before that Sadie is a nickname for Sarah, google has confirmed that.

    There is a Sarah Kinsella, in Liverpool, maybe her
    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ce&pId=3341004

    will have a look later.

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  • sookie23
    replied
    I'm hoping to hear directly from the person that said all this but so far they haven't contacted me. When the do that will be my first question.

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  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
    a quick look at freebmd brings back 4 children Carroll/Kinsella in the area and time, have put initials as could still be around

    EM 1925 Bucklow, Cheshire
    F 1929 Bucklow, Cheshire
    LJ 1930 Bucklow, Cheshire
    RG 1923 Bucklow, Cheshire
    RJ 1927 Bucklow, Cheshire

    and here they are here, but no Sadie, so assume that she may have died, there is a Sarah Carroll death

    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=24724452
    I agree with Carolyn and yourself Sookie likely to be no connection with the Sadie Kinsella

    However I don't feel hearsay can be ignored, just eliminated so where did Millie (Gerald's 2nd wife) get info from I wonder.

    Hopefully 1921 online soon.

    Vera

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  • sookie23
    replied
    I did follow that route when I first started and Sadie disappeared, and Joseph Carroll was married to someone else in the 1939 census. But I will have another dig around for her. But I don't think there is any connection.

    Gerald marriage records have fathers name Gerald Carroll.

    The 1921 census cant come out quick enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
    Hmmm - not sure what others think, but that doesn't look that likely. You know that her name was Elizabeth from address on reg of electors and 1939 reg. Guess worth trying to trace Sadie and see where she goes
    I don't know what to think but how about Elizabeth Condon with young Gerald arrived in Liverpool 1919.

    ​​​​​She then went on in 1923 to marry in Bucklow, Cheshire, using the name Sadie Kinsella, a Joseph Carroll. So Joseph Carroll would be the stepfather of young Gerald b 1918 Boston.

    That marriage broke down. Elizabeth Carroll (previously Sadie Carroll nee Kinsella) then left Bucklow for London where in ? 1937 she married John Kinsella.

    Or Gerald on maturity ended up in Croydon and Elizabeth aka Sadie. Not sure what became of her.

    The 2nd mc of Gerald may reveal another father albeit step. EDIT or maybe the mc of Sadie Kinsella and Joseph Carroll 1923

    Vera

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    a quick look at freebmd brings back 4 children Carroll/Kinsella in the area and time, have put initials as could still be around

    EM 1925 Bucklow, Cheshire
    F 1929 Bucklow, Cheshire
    LJ 1930 Bucklow, Cheshire
    RG 1923 Bucklow, Cheshire
    RJ 1927 Bucklow, Cheshire

    and here they are here, but no Sadie, so assume that she may have died, there is a Sarah Carroll death

    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=24724452

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Hmmm - not sure what others think, but that doesn't look that likely. You know that her name was Elizabeth from address on reg of electors and 1939 reg. Guess worth trying to trace Sadie and see where she goes

    Leave a comment:


  • sookie23
    replied
    Millie knew Gerald's mother but I am sure she said her name was Sadie Kinsella. I found a marriage in a Register office in Bucklow, Cheshire. She married a Joseph Carroll and I wonder if this was actually Gerald's stepfather and given his surname as he was illegitimate. They were living in Wilmslow. Was the whole story about Boston and the USA a fabrication as I have never found a Gerald Carroll there. Sadie's father was John Kinsella, a gamekeeper. Even more confusion!

    This is the email I got the other day. Millie was Geralds 2nd wife.

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  • sookie23
    replied
    They have nothing at all, just their opinion.


    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=60722766

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Originally posted by sookie23 View Post
    For some reason I'm being told her name was Sadie? there is a record of a Sadie Kinsella marrying a Joseph Carroll so they have put two and two together and come up with that's her.
    who was called Sadie? Geralds mother? ie elizabeth condon and not John Kinsella? I think that must refer to another couple, do you have the marriage link? have they got the cert?

    Leave a comment:


  • sookie23
    replied
    For some reason I'm being told her name was Sadie? there is a record of a Sadie Kinsella marrying a Joseph Carroll so they have put two and two together and come up with that's her.

    But what they are not getting is the fact there is no Gerald Kinsella born no Gerald Carroll born on the records. I'm sticking to the Condon side of it all as to me that's the correct side. Sadie could have been a nick name who knows.


    Yes I think she had an affair, but her daughter was already born. So its now its down to good old DNA to try and figure out who. A task and half I can tell you

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  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Originally posted by sookie23 View Post
    Seem a member of Gerald family don't quite agree with what we have found out and insists that the Sadie that married a Joseph Carroll in Bucklow is the right woman. Not the one we have married with the address that I have.

    So I'm going to now add all the people form Bucklow to the tree and see if any dna matches will come along then on ancestry.
    ooh now I am lost, who is Sadie and Joseph? the right woman for what?

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Originally posted by sookie23 View Post
    Not sure I fully understand Carolyn.
    I may have misunderstood, but you said
    "I now think that Doris had an affair with Gerald but she already had her daughter. So now the hunt is to find out who is the biological father of her daughter."

    if this is the case the biological father could be anyone, no one that you have researched previously. The DNA could lead you to this mans relatives , but they are likely to be strangers in your tree, I can only think that you will have to focus on location and age to pinpoint the father. DNA experts on here may be able to throw more light on how to research.

    Leave a comment:


  • sookie23
    replied
    Seem a member of Gerald family don't quite agree with what we have found out and insists that the Sadie that married a Joseph Carroll in Bucklow is the right woman. Not the one we have married with the address that I have.

    So I'm going to now add all the people form Bucklow to the tree and see if any dna matches will come along then on ancestry.

    Leave a comment:


  • sookie23
    replied
    Not sure I fully understand Carolyn.

    Leave a comment:

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