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    #21
    I've found a lot of Elizabeth Kinsella at the address in Burns road 1946-1965 with a few years in between missing. I think I may have to purchase their marriage certificate to see if I can get some more information from that. Just really getting to me that I just cannot for the life of me find Gerald's birth record. Lets hope the 1929 census comes out pretty soon.

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by sookie23 View Post
      ​​​​

      Gerald was in the army and do have is army number. I emailed the FWR to ask if they would have had his place of birth on his records but they replied with a no.
      If you wish to give us Gerald's Army details, records with more details may be available on other sites

      Vera

      Comment


        #23
        Just been reading through the thread can I confirm that you know:
        • 39 Burns Road is the correct mother?
        • she was not married when she had Gerald
        • mother was American or just came over from America (guess she was a bit young to have gone and come back)?
        • Have you seen death cert of mother
        • wondering if Mr Kinsella left her hence why she went by Carroll

        Carolyn
        Family Tree site

        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

        Comment


          #24
          The Marriage of John Kinsella to Elizabeth Carroll was in 1937 off the top of my head he passed away in 1945. Elizabeth Kinsella passed away 1966.

          I'm 99.9 % the Elizabeth Kinsella at 39 Burns Road is his mum.
          Married when she had Gerald I've no idea, the tale that was told was that Gerald was born in Boston his father died and he and his mother came to England. If this is true who knows.
          Either American or Irish that's also hear say .
          No death certificate seen for his mother.
          I think she was Carroll first then Kinsella. Was she ever a Carroll? she could have just taken this name on like my husbands nan did.

          Gerald army number T144535 he was in the Royal Army Service Corps.

          Comment


            #25
            Not able to find anything which reveals dob of Gerald from Army records. Gerald was a Sgt in the RASC and is recorded in the London Gazette on two occasions in 1944. One refers to the approval of the King that Gerald along with others be mentioned in recognition of their gallant and distinguished services in the Middle East.

            Do you have Gerald's pob at the time of marriage?

            Vera

            Comment


              #26
              Many thanks for checking that out for me.

              All his marriage certificate says: Gerald Carroll, 20 years old, bachelor, lorry driver (cement contractors) ,166 Canterbury Road Croydon. Gerald Carrol (deceased)

              Comment


                #27
                So, in the 1939 register, Elsie is initially listed as Elsie Carroll, which is then crossed out, and Rogers is written, which is then crossed out and Gray is written.

                They divorced? Were the divorce records retrieved?

                Have you retrieved both marriage certs or just the one to Elsie?
                ------------------------------------------------------
                My Families
                London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                Comment


                  #28
                  Just the one to Elsie. I've not come across any divorce records online.

                  Comment


                    #29
                    Well, you never know what might be on the other cert unless you buy it. It can, of course, be very disappointing. Sometimes very exciting.

                    Who were the witnesses to the Elsie-Gerald marriage?

                    Is it known that Elsie and Gerald divorced? Ancestry only has UK divorce records to 1918 - can a UK researcher address where to look for a UK divorce after 1939?

                    Oh, and - what about DNA testing?

                    Is this her second marriage?
                    Elsie G Rogers
                    Apr 1947
                    [May 1947]
                    [Jun 1947]
                    Apr-May-Jun
                    Croydon
                    Surrey
                    Charles Gray
                    5g
                    224
                    ------------------------------------------------------
                    My Families
                    London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                    Comment


                      #30
                      I am not sure if divorce records are available, think question has been asked before.

                      I did look in newspapers, but will have another look. sounds like Vera also looked so guessing nothing there.
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Any idea why his death was in Dungeness Power station? A long way from home, thought there maybe a newspaper report, but can't see anything.
                        Carolyn
                        Family Tree site

                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                          I am not sure if divorce records are available, think question has been asked before.
                          "After 1938, very few survive" - uh, oh.
                          "Subject to 30 year closure" - so if it exists, you could get it.
                          https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...etails/r/C9685
                          ------------------------------------------------------
                          My Families
                          London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                          Comment


                            #33
                            From what we know he died whilst working. I've not thought of looking at news papers, is there a good site to do that or just the normal genealogy sites?

                            I don't have the information to be able to obtain the divorce record for Gerald and Elsie. I'm sure I've read, I need who petitioned for the divorce, the case number, this is information I don't have, but wont hurt to email the GRO to ask.

                            Witnesses L M Rogers and T H Rogers.

                            Comment


                              #34
                              From the description I quoted (and what cbcarolyn wrote), it doesn't sound likely that the divorce records still exist - but still worth asking if it's not costly to do so.

                              Have you considered DNA testing?

                              Those witnesses are not enlightening, are they. Sigh.

                              He may have answered questions about his father differently on the second marriage cert than he did on the first. Maybe not. Can't know without looking.

                              The 1921 UK census comes out soon (relatively).
                              ------------------------------------------------------
                              My Families
                              London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Sorry totally forgot to say we are both waiting for our DNA results from Ancestry. Sent them off around the 12th April so still a while to wait.

                                It seems to be one brick wall after the other with Gerald.

                                I've also been searching for his mum, lucky enough we did have an address for her and from that address we have found her name to have been Elizabeth Kinsella. Who prior to being a Kinsella was a Carroll. Slowing digging through her in the hope of coming across her and Gerald somewhere.

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  Was he ever known as Fred!

                                  Can't see this on GRO

                                  Frederick G Carroll
                                  1918 Mar q 1918
                                  Fulham reg district
                                  1a 380
                                  Mother's maiden name Carroll

                                  I did note that from 1950 Elizabeth added M to her name on the Burns Road electoral roll

                                  Vera




                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Not that I'm aware of as far as I know he went by the name Jerry to friends. But worth looking into the Fredrick side.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                                      Was he ever known as Fred!

                                      Can't see this on GRO

                                      Frederick G Carroll
                                      1918 Mar q 1918
                                      Fulham reg district
                                      1a 380
                                      Mother's maiden name Carroll

                                      I did note that from 1950 Elizabeth added M to her name on the Burns Road electoral roll

                                      Vera

                                      I did start to check him out, but decided he was another person, but on second look I can't categorically say who I thought he was, other than there are a couple on the reg of electors.

                                      sookie23 Newspapers can be helpful sometimes, some areas are better than others on a coverage basis. and also whether they will be in the papers. a more rural edition can feature your ancestor a lot more than say the london papers. Always worth a look. I did just wonder if there had been some kind of accident at work and that would have made the papers. I have a subscription to the https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ and it can also be included in a Findmypast package (same data - different search) The BNA let you search for free, so worth creating an account. You can also see the snippets it brings up. you can bookmark articles - I used to do that pre covid and then pop down to the library and then download all my bookmarks for free, and then read at home. Once you have downloaded it stays on your account.
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by sookie23 View Post
                                        From what we know he died whilst working. I've not thought of looking at news papers, is there a good site to do that or just the normal genealogy sites?

                                        I don't have the information to be able to obtain the divorce record for Gerald and Elsie. I'm sure I've read, I need who petitioned for the divorce, the case number, this is information I don't have, but wont hurt to email the GRO to ask.

                                        Witnesses L M Rogers and T H Rogers.
                                        it's the courts for divorce papers copy https://www.gov.uk/copy-decree-absolute-final-order
                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          I'm not to sure his death would have made it into the papers as I'm sure he was just delivering to there not actually working for them. He had his own driver/delivery company based at Bensham Grove Thornton Heath.

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