Sullivan Mary Ann proving she existed

[cbcarolyn]

this was the post

ship he sailed on:
http://passengersinhistory.sa.gov.au/node/672469London
Depart Date
Wednesday, June 7, 1876
Destination
Port Adelaide
Arrive Date
Thursday, August 31, 1876

there is an M sullivan age 18 (miss)
, but also a J sullivan age 21

[2weis]

Carolyn
that shipping record i think J Sullivan may be an older brother to M Sullivan but i am yet to research that bit.
yes i agree that the marriage in may not have happened

Vera the 1877 record is the daughter of Mary Ann (maiden name Drew / Draw) and Denis O"Callaghan i have a copy.

Kyle
The marriage cert say Groom Father Denise (but signed Dennis) Callaghan and I have some shipping records that match what i think i know and most of their
childrens B D M certs in Australia and even they have discrepencies .

I will keep looking and hopefully some other family members are also and it makes me wonder again about doing DNA.

Brian

[vera2013]

Brian

Do you have bc/dc of baby John b 1874 d 1875. It may reveal info about Mary Ann. GRO has possible for Callagan and Sullivan registrations. Unfortunately no Monmouthshire baptism/burial records on FMP that I can see.

Vera

[2weis]

Vera
No bc/dc for John.
First reference is on Thomas 1886 bc re previous issue 2m 2f living 1m dec =5 (Thomas is 6th born)
previous have no siblings listed
Next reference to previous issue is Daniel 1888 bc refers to 2m 3f living (incorrectly)
Next reference to previous issue is Alfred 1889 bc refers to 4m 2f 1m dec
Next reference to previous issue is Sidney 1892 bc refers to 5m 2f 1m dec =8 (Sidney is 9th and my G Father)
Next reference is on Joseph bc 1895 refers to John by name and 21 yrs old = born 1874
Last reference is on Veronica b1899 refers 8m 2f 1m dec Veronica is 12th and last in family and her bc list names of prev siblings alive and is last reference i have to John
All above i have bc dc and mc

I have to re think John because if he is mentioned on the later bc by name he is still alive in at least 1899.Poor reading on my part.
I only assume he was born in Monmouthshire as Parents arrived in June 1876 and next child Mary Ann is born nov 1877

I hope this makes sense
Brian

[cbcarolyn]

Carolyn
that shipping record i think J Sullivan may be an older brother to M Sullivan but i am yet to research that bit.
yes i agree that the marriage in may not have happened

Vera the 1877 record is the daughter of Mary Ann (maiden name Drew / Draw) and Denis O"Callaghan i have a copy.

Kyle
The marriage cert say Groom Father Denise (but signed Dennis) Callaghan and I have some shipping records that match what i think i know and most of their
childrens B D M certs in Australia and even they have discrepencies .

I will keep looking and hopefully some other family members are also and it makes me wonder again about doing DNA.

Brian

Are you thinking it is your Mary?

actual list is here:
https://archives.sa.gov.au/sites/def...5_Hydaspes.pdf

First name I think is Mary, but could be May?

there are several lists, one with application number, found Mary and Denis share the same application number 507

John Sullivan is 495, could be related as not far away assuming they are issued in order.



What records do you have for John? where is birth date from? Is he Marys child but not Denis?

[2weis]

Carolyn
I dont know what it means .
J Sullivan page 12 single, labourer ,22 yrs old Registration number 495 may be sibling or unrelated
M Sullivan page 20 single, servant 18 yrs old Registration number 507 ,could be may or mary
D Callaghan page 9 single, labourer 21 yrs old Registration number 507.
Could the registration number be like a ticket number linking the 2 travelling together but single.

With john all the records i have come from sibling bc and i have to o thru them again and get my facts straight.
Brian

[kylejustin]

Do all the australian births just give "wales" for parents' birthplace? What do they say for marriage details?

and if john is listed as being alive on his younger siblings birth certs, then evidently he made to 1900ish.

if you have everyone's death certs, what year can you calculate for emmigration? Is it the same on all, or similar year given?

[vera2013]

Vera
No bc/dc for John.
First reference is on Thomas 1886 bc re previous issue 2m 2f living 1m dec =5 (Thomas is 6th born)
previous have no siblings listed
Next reference to previous issue is Daniel 1888 bc refers to 2m 3f living (incorrectly)
Next reference to previous issue is Alfred 1889 bc refers to 4m 2f 1m dec
Next reference to previous issue is Sidney 1892 bc refers to 5m 2f 1m dec =8 (Sidney is 9th and my G Father)
Next reference is on Joseph bc 1895 refers to John by name and 21 yrs old = born 1874
Last reference is on Veronica b1899 refers 8m 2f 1m dec Veronica is 12th and last in family and her bc list names of prev siblings alive and is last reference i have to John
All above i have bc dc and mc

I have to re think John because if he is mentioned on the later bc by name he is still alive in at least 1899.Poor reading on my part.
I only assume he was born in Monmouthshire as Parents arrived in June 1876 and next child Mary Ann is born nov 1877

I hope this makes sense
Brian

I would think that the latter recording of John, under previous issue, is giving age as it would have been had he lived. Previous bcs, except one, add up to the one male deceased

On the GRO there is a birth for a John Sullivan b June Q 1874 no mmn d June Q 1975 aged 1. Newport reg.

Vera

[2weis]

Kyle
All bc until Thomas in 1886 are South Australian with either nothing on those information lines or NR
after that Thomas 1886 DOM 7/1/1874 POM Wales M birth place Wales M age 28 = b1858
Daniel 1888 18/1/1874 England England 30 = b 1858
Alfred 1889 1/4/1874 Monmouth Wales Glamorgan Wales 33 = b 1856
Sidney 1892 18/1/1872 Monmouthshire Wales Monmouthshire Wales 36 = b 1856
Timothy 1893 18/1/1872 Monmouthshire Wales Wales 37 = b 1856
Joseph 1895 18/1/1872 Monmouthshire Wales Monmouthshire Wales 39 = b 1856
Veronica 1899 18/1/1872 Monmouthshire Wales Monmouthshire Wales 43 = b 1856
All bc have Mary as informant making her mark except for Catherine when Dennis signs
Marriage cert in Adelaide 29/1/1877 gives Denis (groom ) no place of birth age 22 =b 1855 Mary Ann (bride) no place of birth age 18 = b 1859

No emmigration involved except for maybe 1st child John whose dob i arrive at from siblings bc . I have some likely ships passenger list but i cant find
Mary or John with a child, he may have been left behind being out of wedlock with young parents
Brian

[2weis]

Vera--------------------- b ------------------------d
child --------1 John 1874
---------------2 MARY 1877 ---------------1954
---------------3 catherine 1879 -------------1945
---------------4 william 1881 ----------------1962
----------------5 denis 1883 -----------------1885
----------------6 thomas 1886--------------- 1954 2 m 2 f 1m dec (DENIS)---------------------------------------------------=5 siblings
---------------7 daniel 1888 -----------------1953 2m 3 f i think genders swapped and denise 1m dec missed-------- =6 siblings
---------------8 alfred 1889 ------------------1971 4m 2 f 1m dec ------------------------------------------------------------------=7 siblings
---------------9 sidney 1892 ------------------1975 5m 2 f 1m dec------------------------------------------------------------------=8 siblings
--------------10 timothy 1893 ----------------1974 6m 2f 1 m dec----------------------------------------------------------------- = 9 siblings
--------------11 joseph 1895------------------1959 7 m 2f 1m dec first mention JOHN by name age 21 = b 1874-------=10 siblings
--------------12 victoria 1899 ----------------1979 8m 2f 1 m dec JOHN age 25= b 1874------------------------------------- =11 siblings

On Dennis death cert in 1932 son John is listed age 57= b 1875 Also say place of marriage Monmouthshire wales age 20------------Informant son Timothy
Mary Ann death cert in 1948 says married SA 1948 lists 7m 2 f 1 f dec 2 m dec Catherine in 1945 Denise in 1885 and i suspect John-- informant son Joseph

Going by this i think John dies between 1932-1948
Brian

[cbcarolyn]

Carolyn
I dont know what it means .
J Sullivan page 12 single, labourer ,22 yrs old Registration number 495 may be sibling or unrelated
M Sullivan page 20 single, servant 18 yrs old Registration number 507 ,could be may or mary
D Callaghan page 9 single, labourer 21 yrs old Registration number 507.
Could the registration number be like a ticket number linking the 2 travelling together but single.

With john all the records i have come from sibling bc and i have to o thru them again and get my facts straight.
Brian

That is what I am guessing, hence my post I assume there was a book of reg numbers and they worked through them in the ticket office. I did wonder if there were different sets of numbers that were allocated to different types of bookings and that you could get more info on them, not that it would help discover any more about family, just about the travel/journey.

It does then beg some questions if this is them travelling together.....
if John is alive, where is he? did he stay with grandparents and not go to Aus
she is travelling under name of Sullivan ad therefore not married?

[2weis]

Carolyn
I think i worked ot he died between 1932-1948
He is alive on father Dennis death cert but deceased on mother Mother Mary Anne death cert
If he did come to Australia as a child he could be a Sullivan Callaghan or Draw / Drew, her mothers maiden name
or he could have been left with a relative on birth, they seemed to do all sorts of things then.
Brian

[cbcarolyn]

if the shipping is them, it looks like they were not married, then likely he would have been registered in her name?

with a name like John bit of a needle in a haystack, there is this one:

SULLIVAN, JOHN -
GRO Reference: 1874 J Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 11A Page 205

there are also births by that name in Swansea, Pontypool and Cardiff, but non looking likely on GRO really - maybe this one:

SULLIVAN, JOHN MMN SULLIVAN
GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 752

I guess you have searched for obituaries for the parents and the children in the newspapers?

[2weis]

carolyn
I will look at GRO births tomorrow.
As I have death cert for most of John siblings i havent looked hard for newspaper articles.
Brian

[vera2013]

Vera--------------------- b ------------------------d
child --------1 John 1874
---------------2 MARY 1877 ---------------1954
---------------3 catherine 1879 -------------1945
---------------4 william 1881 ----------------1962
----------------5 denis 1883 -----------------1885
----------------6 thomas 1886--------------- 1954 2 m 2 f 1m dec (DENIS)---------------------------------------------------=5 siblings
---------------7 daniel 1888 -----------------1953 2m 3 f i think genders swapped and denise 1m dec missed-------- =6 siblings
---------------8 alfred 1889 ------------------1971 4m 2 f 1m dec ------------------------------------------------------------------=7 siblings
---------------9 sidney 1892 ------------------1975 5m 2 f 1m dec------------------------------------------------------------------=8 siblings
--------------10 timothy 1893 ----------------1974 6m 2f 1 m dec----------------------------------------------------------------- = 9 siblings
--------------11 joseph 1895------------------1959 7 m 2f 1m dec first mention JOHN by name age 21 = b 1874-------=10 siblings
--------------12 victoria 1899 ----------------1979 8m 2f 1 m dec JOHN age 25= b 1874------------------------------------- =11 siblings

On Dennis death cert in 1932 son John is listed age 57= b 1875 Also say place of marriage Monmouthshire wales age 20------------Informant son Timothy
Mary Ann death cert in 1948 says married SA 1948 lists 7m 2 f 1 f dec 2 m dec Catherine in 1945 Denise in 1885 and i suspect John-- informant son Joseph

Going by this i think John dies between 1932-1948
Brian

So the deceased m ale recorded as previous issue on Thomas bc is Denis. Got it. So looking for an alive John.

Another GRO suggestion Sullivan John b June Quarter 1874 Bedwelty. No mother's Maiden name.

Vera

[cbcarolyn]

where did they die in Australia? I would think worth a look through papers - could mention family members etc

[cbcarolyn]

not helping in your quest, other than you can see the family members alive, no John mentioned.
Does this tie up to your records?

Screenshot 2021-04-11 at 23.49.55.png

[2weis]

Carolyn
Yes it does (mostly)
Mary = mary ann---------
W Fox is Mary ----
K Miller is Catherine---
WM is William---
Thomas--
Daniel---
Alfred--
Sydney---
Timothy---
Joseph-----
Hall is Veronica--
Miss P is a relative
While I have Catherine listed as dying in 1945 she lived an interesting life and I don't at this stage have proof of her death or what name she was using.
I suspect that the Jack mentioned is my John even if he is not on Marys dc as alive (Timothy was informant) they may have lost contact with him

I have 3 GRO bc for John any suggestion as to how to determine which one to order or any way to view before ordering
It looks like I may have to take out a newspaper sub to do any searching for Funeral Notices
Brian

[kylejustin]

Well someone in that notice is a sibling of dennis, as it states father and brother.

[2weis]

Kyle
It is possible that Denis is brother to Miss P Callaghan, i have not researched that connection yet.
Brian