Sullivan Mary Ann proving she existed

[2weis]

Trying to prove my Great Grand Mother was born.
Death cert (i have copy) says dies at 92 yrs old = born 1856 Born Wales Great Britian . Father is William Sullivan mother is Annie Draw.
Marriage cert 1877 (i have copy) says she is 18 yrs old = born 1859 no country of birth listed.
I have 1871 Wales census that list Hannah (Annie possible short for ) Sullivan, from Ireland head, 47 yrs =b 1824 Ann 19 =b 1852 Catherine 17 = b 1854 Mary (MINE ??) 13 = b 1858. Children born Monmouth Newport ,Living at Rees's Buildings.
I have 1861 Wales census that list Ann Sullivan ,from Ireland head 38 yrs = b1823 Ann 9 =b 1852 Catherine 8 =b 1853 Mary (MINE) 3= b 1858 Children born Monmouth Newport.Living at 17 Club Row 2 families 14 people
I have searched GRO UK FREE BMD Family tree and lots of others.
I will be grateful for any hints, suggestions or sites to search
Brian

[GallowayLass]

I’ve drawn a blank too, sorry.

[cbcarolyn]

I can't find any of them on GRO - do you have the 2 sisters? maybe they were all born in Ireland, guess you don't have parents marriage?

[Guest]

Could this be her or have I read this wrong


Name
Mary Ann Sullivan
Registration Year 1856
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district Abergavenny
Inferred County Monmouthshire
Volume 11a
Page 101

There is a tree on Ancestry with her in it

[GallowayLass]

Don’t think so Val, mms is wrong

SULLIVAN, MARY ANN	CLIFFORD
GRO Reference: 1856 D Quarter in ABERGAVENNY Volume 11A Page 101

[Guest]

oh I see mothers maiden name is different, on the GRO , maybe contact the person on Ancestry

must learn to type quicker Galloway,

[Guest]

she also has a sister Catherine in her tree ,but no father for her.

[cbcarolyn]

I can't see any Sullivan birth with maiden name Draw on FMP, or GRO. Can't find much with the name Draw, only Drew.

[GallowayLass]

I can't see any Sullivan birth with maiden name Draw on FMP, or GRO. Can't find much with the name Draw, only Drew.

Same here Caroline. I’ve not even found an Irish parish marriage for William and Annie / Ann / Hannah. Have tried familysearch and irishgenealogy. No baptisms for Mary Ann or Caroline either in case they were born in Ireland.

[2weis]

GallowLass
Both 1867 and 1871 give Monmouth Newport as birth place for all children.
Mary Ann death cert gives Wales Great Britian as birthplace
I have no parents information to go on.

Val
I have a copy of 1856 11a 101 and mothers mn is Clifford so i have discounted that

cbcarolyn
I seem to remember seeing something transcribed as DREW but the actual writing was DRAW but i cant find it now.

I have 2 other GRO likely birth cert 1857 11a 71 and 1858 11a 74 but I was hoping for more to go on before i ordered any more

Thanks for input so far will keep looking
Brian

[kylejustin]

So the australian death certificate lists her parents?

and you believe the 2 census you list is hers?

how sure are you this information is accurate?

[2weis]

kylejustin
Death cert lists F William Sullivan M Annie Draw (the w could be a u ) Information supplied by son Joseph.
But i have been told by other children that Mary Ann and Denise claimed to be married in Monmouthshire in 1874 and only got
married again in Adelaide to celebrate.
The 2 census I am not sure enough to rely on them only but i dont know how to prove // disprove them
Brian

[teasie]

The problem with death certificates is that the information is given by people who often don't know the correct facts - I've just spent several weeks proving that a father named on a Scottish death certificate is completely wrong. The census show that Mary Ann can barely have known her father, if he was dead before she was 3.

Looking for mother Ann in 1851 brings up a couple named Jeremiah (30) & Ann (26) Sullivan both born Ireland & living in Fothergill Street, Newport with a family named McCarthy, also born Ireland (Jeremiah 30, Mary 32 & Mary 4, and lodger John McCarthy 30).

There is a marriage in Newport in 1850 between Jeremiah O'Sullivan & (same page) Ann Hill Allen. Without seeing the marriage certificate there's no way of knowing if Ann is the correct bride, and if so whether she was a spinster or a widow. Its not unusual for the 'O' to be added and dropped from the surname almost at will - I learned that the hard way!

A Jeremiah Sullivan of the right age died in 1857, and the Ann in the 1861 & 1871 census stopped having children after Mary Ann c1857/8, so its certainly a possibility.

Generalising here, but I find that the Irish - and particularly Catholics - weren't very good at registering births, especially before 1874 when it wasn't even the parents responsibility to ensure it happened.

[2weis]

Teasie
I have Denise O'Callaghan b1811 marrying a Ellen Collins (Collings) b 1823 no records except census.He dies in 1861 in same foundry as 2 oh his children and Ellen marries or takes up with James Donovan as 1871 census James age 50 Ellen age 50 Mary a Callaghan age 15.
1st child Mike (Michael) b 1845 dies 1857 age 12 in a Blaina foundry accident, i have newspaper article.
2nd child Timothy b1848 still alive on 1861 census age 14 born Monmouthshire
3rd child Jeremiah b 1848 (twin?) dies 1858 age 9 in same Blaina foundry as Mike b Monmouthshire
4th child Denis b1851 Monmouthshire marrys Mary Ann Sullivan THIS BRANCH IS MY WORRY.
5th child Mary A B1856 Monmouthshire alive 1861 census age 4
Yes i have found the Irish to be very slack in paperwork and spelling.
I have found O'Callaghan Callaghan Calligan used thru out also O'Sullivan Sullivan Collins Collings no wonder we get confused.
Brian

[cbcarolyn]

there is a previous thread on this, I remember these names

https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/research-advice/family-history-research/72070-gloucestershire-record-dennis-o-callaghan/page2

https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/research-advice/family-history-research/71411-marriage-cert-bedwelty/page2

[cbcarolyn]

kylejustin
Death cert lists F William Sullivan M Annie Draw (the w could be a u ) Information supplied by son Joseph.
But i have been told by other children that Mary Ann and Denise claimed to be married in Monmouthshire in 1874 and only got
married again in Adelaide to celebrate.
The 2 census I am not sure enough to rely on them only but i dont know how to prove // disprove them
Brian

Not re read the entire previous threads, but the marriage in Wales was never located? So may not have happened?

[vera2013]

I wonder if there is any significance to 1877 birth record of dau of Denis and Mary Ann which has mother recorded as Mary Drew. Probably going off on a tangent with this one but will park it here just in case.

There is a GRO for Mary Ann Drew b 1857 Abervavenny reg mm n Morgan.

There is a Monmouthshire marriage on FMP for 1854 16 Sep Bedwelty Parish Church
John Drew 29 B Carpenter res Tredegar father Thomas occ Sawyer
Mary Morgan 23 Tredegar father Thomas Dec
Mary signed x John signed Witnesses John and David Morgan signed x

A John Drew died 1874 aet 49 Tredegar St George. Wonder if Mary Drew ne e Morgan remarried a Sullivan EDIT Ignore. She morphs into Mary Jane. Then with family and later marries


Vera

[kylejustin]

Did you find the adelaide marriage? Is the father's name the same? South australian marriages record the father's name, but not their occupations unfortunately.

what records can you prove? Ie a shipping list, a census etc

[vera2013]

Duplicated

[cbcarolyn]

Did you find the adelaide marriage? Is the father's name the same? South australian marriages record the father's name, but not their occupations unfortunately.

what records can you prove? Ie a shipping list, a census etc

I found Denis on shipping list - I posted the link on previous thread