Two faceless grandads

[Searcher64]

Hi Carolyn, yes, I sent you a PM a little while ago. This is crazy. Same age, club owner, both married much younger women and then, as can be seen, he goes on and married again! I’m wondering if they were in partnership or something. Anne was a bar lady. Strangely, one thing I remember my Nan telling me was that she’d gone to find him at the club and it was a bar lady that told him about the other woman.

[Darksecretz]

There is a Nathaniel C Bickerstaff he marries an Ann Wyatt and also Alma - I am guessing same guy

and he is here in 1939

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61596/images/tna_r39_0628_0628g_006?treeid=171416310&personid=162347843856&usePUB=true&_phsrc=RcU9058&_phstart=successSource&pId=9356176

He is a club proprietor!

68 Claverton Street, Westminster

a strange thought just popped in my head... what if he changed his name to Nathaniel Bickerstaff?

[Katarzyna]

Name: Nathaniel Caters Bickerstaff
Death Age: 65
Birth Date: 29 Nov 1905--------------Date agrees with 1939 census
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Wandsworth
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5e
Page: 1345

1911 Ireland Census

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/15233951:70564

Household Members Age Relationship
Elizabeth Bickerstoff 36 Wife
Nathaniel Cotes Bickerstoff 5 Son b Belfast
Kathleen Elizabeth Bickerstoff 3 Daughter
William Caters Bickerstoff 36 Head
Georgine Victoria Ryan 24 Boarder

[Katarzyna]

Bingham was Alma's maiden name - Shaw was her 1st marriage Name

Marriages Sep 1952
BICKERSTAFF Nathaniel C SHAW Wandsworth 5d 1792
BICKERSTAFF Nathaniel C BINGHAM Wandsworth 5d 1792
BINGHAM Alma BICKERSTAFF Wandsworth 5d 1792
Shaw Alma Bickerstaff Wandsworth 5d 1792

Marriages Mar 1943
Bingham Alma Shaw Romsey 2c 171
Shaw William A Bingham Romsey 2c 171

[cbcarolyn]

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks for putting all that together. Yes, I have the death certificate for Patricia. It was from that that I discovered she had another sister, who had been the informant of death. Since I posted on here a year ago, I spoke to the daughter of this lady who confirmed Patricia did not in fact marry after all.

did this lady know anywhere that her grandparents lived?

I am wondering if Bickerstaff and William were proprietors of the same club eg partners. kind of feel would be unusual to be "best friends" of a rival club

the 3rd childs birth cert Lynda would give an address where they were, but this is the one registered in Ware, so had moved out of London by this time. I am remembering finding her death in Greece by luck, now that I have found your tree.

There is a Patricia M Haslam in 109 Belgrave Gardens in the 60s, but name doesn't seem unique enough, so could be any Patricia really.

[Searcher64]

did this lady know anywhere that her grandparents lived?

I am wondering if Bickerstaff and William were proprietors of the same club eg partners. kind of feel would be unusual to be "best friends" of a rival club

the 3rd childs birth cert Lynda would give an address where they were, but this is the one registered in Ware, so had moved out of London by this time. I am remembering finding her death in Greece by luck, now that I have found your tree.

There is a Patricia M Haslam in 109 Belgrave Gardens in the 60s, but name doesn't seem unique enough, so could be any Patricia really.

Hi Carolyn,

Yes, all of my searches came to a dead end. All I know is that they were in Hertfordshire in the 50s, very wealthy with a large house and a supermarket. William had stalls and rides at the Kersal in Southend. He died in 1960 according to Lynda’s son’s tree from a brain haemorrhage. Florence Beagin assumed his name although never married. She died in a care home in Wales in 1992. Found records of her death, Lynda’s and Patricia’s but nothing for him.

Yes, I also thought this must have been a partnership in the same club.

So, I have no record of birth, addresses where he lived, nor record for his death as there are so many William Haslams born in the same year.

Thank you again 😊

[Searcher64]

Bingham was Alma's maiden name - Shaw was her 1st marriage Name

Marriages Sep 1952
BICKERSTAFF Nathaniel C SHAW Wandsworth 5d 1792
BICKERSTAFF Nathaniel C BINGHAM Wandsworth 5d 1792
BINGHAM Alma BICKERSTAFF Wandsworth 5d 1792
Shaw Alma Bickerstaff Wandsworth 5d 1792

Marriages Mar 1943
Bingham Alma Shaw Romsey 2c 171
Shaw William A Bingham Romsey 2c 171

Thank you, Kat 😊

[Searcher64]

Name: Nathaniel Caters Bickerstaff
Death Age: 65
Birth Date: 29 Nov 1905--------------Date agrees with 1939 census
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Wandsworth
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5e
Page: 1345

1911 Ireland Census

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/15233951:70564

Household Members Age Relationship
Elizabeth Bickerstoff 36 Wife
Nathaniel Cotes Bickerstoff 5 Son b Belfast
Kathleen Elizabeth Bickerstoff 3 Daughter
William Caters Bickerstoff 36 Head
Georgine Victoria Ryan 24 Boarder

Thanks Kat 😊

[MarnieJustine]

I think the name James is a mistake and should read Joseph on the list of passengers on the ship

[cbcarolyn]

I think the name James is a mistake and should read Joseph on the list of passengers on the ship

That must have confused the issue for you :( sounds like you have lots of records pinned down after their arrival.

We were def off track for Searcher64 family as was starting with the wrong census, so we found your family. Did you already have the half brother and sister? and the 1921 census? Sad to see the 3 children split up, I guess they never knew about more family in the UK.

[MarnieJustine]

I didn't know about the half siblings Ernest Haslam and Dorothy Cowell Saker until I read the posts here - is Alfred Saker father to both? I haven't seen the 1921 census yet.

[cbcarolyn]

I see that there is a Celeste Saker in census

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?datasetname=1921%20census%20of%20england%20%26%20wales&firstname=celeste&firstname_variants=true&yearofbirth=1882&yearofbirth_offset=2&lastname=saker&sid=999

says she is with Alfred, Edward and 3 others.

You can see a bit of the census by clicking through on the above link, you can buy the image only for £2.50 I think, it tells when you go to look at it.

The births on GRO have Saker as their name and Cowell as Maiden Name, you can see that just by registering, and searching, anymore information and you would have to by the cert.

SAKER, DOROTHY COWELL
GRO Reference: 1920 S Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 489

and this info on post 30
"He is as Ernest Haslam dob 18 Jan 1917 at no. 45 with Miss Saker, this lady marries 1940 to Trimmer.

There is a burial for Celeste on FMP, buried at East Ham, St Mary Magdalene 16 Aug 1937

Ernest's birth is

Q1 West Ham 1917 4A/156 MMN Cowell"

We deduced brother and sister married brother and sister

Also Celeste married Alfred after the birth of the children

[MarnieJustine]

I made a mistake earlier about the children of John William Cowell and Ann Elizabeth Cowell (maiden name Taylor). I thought two of their daughters Ethel and Lilian were adopted but the wrong birth dates were recorded in the census and they are the biological daughters after all. Sorry, should have made sure before posting.