Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

William Woodward - please help me sort this out

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    William Woodward - please help me sort this out

    Can you help me with this conundrum, it’s hurting my brain but fresh eyes might be able to make sense of it.

    In my early research many years ago, I found William Woodward b1865 in Watford, Herts, son of Mary Woodward.
    .
    WOODWARD, WILLIAM -
    GRO Reference: 1865 D Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 331
    .
    I also found the marriage of Mary Woodward to William Rawlinson Feb 1867 and their subsequent children Louisa b 1867, Julia b 1868, Harriet Ann b 1871, Caroline b 1875, Henry Joseph b 1877, Rose b 1881, Maria b 1882

    All seemed fine until I have
    recently been reviewing some old research and noticed that I have an exact birth date for William although I can’t find a certificate in my files. I have the date 29 Aug 1865. Where did I get that from?
    (Edit - I’ve just searched again and I have found the paper document. Somehow it didn’t get scanned onto my computer)

    So I went back to GRO to check the information and found these

    BIRTH
    WOODWARD, WILLIAM MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 305
    .
    DEATH
    WOODWARD, WILLIAM Age at death 0
    GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 213
    .
    BIRTH
    WOODWARD, WILLIAM MMN -
    GRO Reference: 1868 D Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 351
    .
    And then I found a baptism in West Hyde, Hertfordshire

    23 Jun 1859 West Hyde - mother’s name Maria Woodward - single woman (marked Private in the margin I think) https://search.findmypast.co.uk/reco...2FM%2F71948492

    I haven't found any of the family in the 1871 census.

    So now I am so confused about all these people and I'm beginning to wonder if I have gone completely wrong somewhere. The simple answer would be to order these 4 GRO certificates but that is going to be expensive. Is there another way that I can resolve this?
    Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

    #2
    The William born and died, could be the same mother, and then she had another child and called him William. William quite common he could be named after a different William. How old is your Mary could she have had a child in 1859?
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


      #3
      "In case you were wondering .................

      Private" in the margin indicates a Private Baptism, ie the baby was baptised not in church but in private where he was born.

      It was usually done if the baby was sickly or weak and not expected to survive.

      A second baptism in church is sometimes found on a later date if the baby survived and a "proper" baptism was wanted by the parent(s).

      As Carolyn posted, parents often re-used a name if a child died for a later birth. It can be confusing.
      My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

      Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

      Comment


        #4
        From FMP ...........

        William Woodward, age 2 months, buried 18 July 1859, West Hyde, Hertfordshire.

        Transcription and image available.

        No further information on the image.

        My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

        Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

        Comment


          #5
          If the 1901 Census that I found is the correct one, Mary A Rawlinson says she was born ca 1845, West Hyde, Hertfordshire.

          If so, she would have been ca 14 +/- 2 years in 1859.

          Very young, but old enough to have had a baby then
          My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

          Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

          Comment


            #6
            On her marriage certificate to William Rawlinson, Mary Ann states that her father was called Joseph.

            The witnesses were Joseph Rawlinson and Julia Spencer ......... neither of whom could write their name.

            Both first names were used for Mary Ann's children.


            The only problem that I can see is that there was also a Maria Woodward born ca 1845 in the Watford area, who also married in 1867, but in June to a William Willson.
            My grandmother, on the beach, South Bay, Scarborough, undated photo (poss. 1929 or 1930)

            Researching Cadd, Schofield, Cottrell in Lancashire, Buckinghamshire; Taylor, Park in Westmorland; Hayhurst in Yorkshire, Westmorland, Lancashire; Hughes, Roberts in Wales.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Sylvia C View Post
              If the 1901 Census that I found is the correct one, Mary A Rawlinson says she was born ca 1845, West Hyde, Hertfordshire.

              If so, she would have been ca 14 +/- 2 years in 1859.

              Very young, but old enough to have had a baby then
              On the 1881 (as Rawlingson) she gives her age as 39, so born c 1842. Eldest child is William Rawlingson aged 15 born West Hyde,

              I'm not certain, but in 1871 they may have been enumerated in Rickmansworth at Robinson, with Mary Ann aged 28, but if so there's an elder daughter called Emily born c1862 I cant account for, unless this is her:

              WOODWARD, EMMA (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 301

              An Emily Woodward aged 19 married Lawrence Thomas Sanger in Feb 1881, and in the 1881 census she gives her PoB as West Hyde.

              And to complicate things even further, by 1891 the surname changes from Sanger to Anderson

              Comment


                #8
                I wonder if this is the William Woodward born Q4 1868: 1871 census RG10/1380/71/20

                William Males 44 Bricklayer Unmarried b Bushey
                Charlotte Woodward 39 Unmarried Lives with above b Rickmansworth
                Jane Woodward 11 daur of above b Bushey
                Eliza Woodward 9 daur of above b Bushey
                Emma 5 daur of above b Bushey
                William 2 son of above b Bushey

                There are these adult baptism in Bushey on 19 Sep 1875
                Born 6 May 1858 Jane Elizabeth Males d/o William Males & Charlotte (Woodward) Clay Hill, Labourer
                Born 9 July 1861 Eliza Ann Males d/o William Males & Charlotte (Woodward) Clay Hill, Labourer

                I cant see births for either of the two older girls, but there is a possible birth for Emma:
                WOODWARD, EMILY (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 336

                By 1881 Charlotte (Males) is a 40 year old widow at Hedges Yard, Watford with Jane & Eliza (Males) plus another daughter, Mary Ann aged 6, and granddaughter Sarah aged 2.

                Mary Ann's birth: MALES, MARY ANN mmn WOODWARD GRO Reference: 1875 J Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 386

                William Males aged 13 born Bushey is in the Watford Union Workhouse. Emily appears to have died in 1876, aged 10.

                The only Charlotte Woodward I can see in the census was born c1838 and was the daughter of John & Sarah Woodward. She had an older sister named Mary Ann, baptised 15 May 1831, but that would make her 10 years too old to be the Mary Ann who married William Rawlinson

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by teasie View Post

                  On the 1881 (as Rawlingson) she gives her age as 39, so born c 1842. Eldest child is William Rawlingson aged 15 born West Hyde,

                  I'm not certain, but in 1871 they may have been enumerated in Rickmansworth at Robinson, with Mary Ann aged 28, but if so there's an elder daughter called Emily born c1862 I cant account for, unless this is her:

                  WOODWARD, EMMA (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1862 M Quarter in WATFORD UNION Volume 03A Page 301

                  An Emily Woodward aged 19 married Lawrence Thomas Sanger in Feb 1881, and in the 1881 census she gives her PoB as West Hyde.

                  And to complicate things even further, by 1891 the surname changes from Sanger to Anderson
                  I would say that William Woodward birth Dec.1865 Watford is your guy - on census shown bc.1866 (i.e. latter half of 1865 or early 1866). In fact, he was baptised 6/6/1873 West Hyde with birth year shown of 1867 which I believe was an error and should show as 1865 - like his sister Harriet baptised the week before his surname shown as Rollinson, son of William and Mary Ann of West Hyde. They could have said born 1867 for propriety's sake being the year they married! They also had a daughter Ellen (birth Sept.1867) bp.8/9/1867 West Hyde, who died in Dec.qtr.1867. Incidentally, Louisa was born 1868, Julia 1871 and Harriet in 1873.

                  Annette

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Brilliant overnight sleuthing everyone! Thank you all so much! I think I had been staring at it for too long, too late in the day and couldn't see the wood for the trees! Now with your input it is all beginning to make sense and I can finally sort out the facts and get them into my tree.
                    Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I do get so frustrated with myself when I can't find things that I know must be there. There must be something wrong with my search technique but I can't work out where I am going wrong.

                      Following on from the above, I am searching the 1871 census to try and find William and his family. I have had no luck with him or his parents William Charles Rawlinson and Mary Ann Woodward so I am going through other relatives to see if I can find any clues.

                      The parents of William Charles Rawlinson are Joseph Rawlinson and Sarah Rider (or Ryder) who I have found on FMP with 4 of their 11 children. That hasn't solved anything but I noticed that the address given in the transcript is a Public House https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcr...871/0016551190 However, when I looked at the original image I can't see anything suggesting a Public House. The address column is blank on that page and the ones before and after it. I probably should have saved that little rabbit hole for a later date but it's hard not to follow these things up so I decided to look for the same information on Ancestry but I don't seem able to find them on the 1971 census at all.

                      This is the household on FindMyPast
                      Joseph Rawlingson Head - Male 55 1816 - Middlesex, England
                      Sarah Rawlingson Wife - Female 52 1819 - Hertfordshire, England
                      Fredrick Rawlingson Son - Male 24 1847 - Hertfordshire, England
                      Edward Rawlingson Son - Male 19 1852 - Hertfordshire, England
                      Ellen Rawlingson Daughter - Female 12 1859 - Hertfordshire, England
                      Mary Ann Rawlingson Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Hertfordshire, England
                      -
                      Public House
                      Rickmansworth
                      -
                      Hertfordshire
                      England
                      Watford
                      -
                      RG10
                      1383
                      95
                      13
                      1871 census Joseph Rawlinson head.JPG

                      I have tried all sorts of ways to search for them on Ancestry but have drawn a blank.
                      I bet one of you clever people will find them easily ! I just don't understand what I am doing wrong.
                      Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The reason it says 'Public House' is that instead of leaving it blank, like the image, the transcriber has carried it down from the entry a few pages earlier for Daniel Ford (Publican) & his wife Phoebe Ford

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I don't have ancestry at the moment but tried various things but can't see results.

                          Gave up on parents but put in Ellen 1859 Rickmansworth and brother Edward and it is the 2nd one on the list. Can't view it myself but looks correct.
                          Lin

                          Searching Lowe, Everitt, Hurt and Dunns in Nottingham

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Sorry, Ive lost track of who youre looking for in 1871. Isnt it the family I mentioned in post #7 enumerated as Robinson, with the daughter Emily who could be Emma Woodward b1866?

                            https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VF6V-ZPK

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
                              I don't have ancestry at the moment but tried various things but can't see results.

                              Gave up on parents but put in Ellen 1859 Rickmansworth and brother Edward and it is the 2nd one on the list. Can't view it myself but looks correct.
                              Thank you, Lin, that worked. I have the surname as Rawlinson without the g so Ancestry didn't pick up Rawlingson even though I had it on 'sounds like'.
                              Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by teasie View Post
                                Sorry, Ive lost track of who youre looking for in 1871. Isnt it the family I mentioned in post #7 enumerated as Robinson, with the daughter Emily who could be Emma Woodward b1866?

                                https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VF6V-ZPK
                                Sorry, teasie, I forgot to reply to that. I was hoping that you were right but I checked the children on the GRO births with the surname Rawlinson and they don't match. I found a marriage of William Robinson and Mary Franklin in 1861 and some subsequent children with MMN Franklin.

                                The family that I am looking for in 1871 are these ones. I have them in all the other decades living in West Hyde except 1871.

                                William and Mary.JPG
                                Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  On ancestry these are written as Robinson, could it be them

                                  https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...ue&pId=6360358


                                  William Robinson
                                  36 Head
                                  Mary Ann Robinson
                                  28 Wife
                                  Emily Robinson
                                  9 Daughter
                                  William Robinson
                                  5 Son
                                  Louisa Robinson 2 Daughter
                                  Haley Robinson
                                  3/12 Daughter

                                  Ok Ignore this - you have already seen this
                                  Last edited by cbcarolyn; 20-03-21, 21:56.
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    I think this one will have to go on the back burner. I’ve just been through all the member trees that have this family on Ancestry and not one of them has William and Mary on the 1871 census either. They have either slipped through the net or been very badly transcribed.
                                    Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      For what its worth, I do think the 'Robinson' family is the correct one. They have a daughter Louisa born c1868, and there is no other Louisa R*son born Watford RD around the right time.

                                      'Haley' is 3-months old, and there is only one female R*son birth registered Watford RD Q1 1871 - Julia Rawlinson.

                                      Bear in mind that (apart from the 1911) the census we see isn't the original as written, but what was copied over from the household schedule by the enumerator, and therefore liable to have plenty of errors and 'best guesses' at bad handwriting.


                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Thank you, teasie, I have been looking at it again today and like you, I can see a lot of reasons why it could be right but I can also see reasons why it could be wrong. I will look again tomorrow and see whether family Robinson exist in the previous or subsequent censuses. If they don’t then I think I will accept that this is in fact the Rawlinson family.

                                        I do appreciate you spending time on this
                                        Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent), DRAYSON (Canterbury, Kent), CRISP (Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X