Samuel Warren of Derby.

[ozgirl]

Samuel Warren was born in Holbrook Derbyshire to Mark and Hannah Warren, and was baptised on 2 Dec 1860 in Holbrook. I have him in the censuses until 1881. There he is living in Litchurch with his widowed mother, 2 brothers and 2 nieces. There is a possibility that he marries in 1883 to Martha Jane Whitehouse. The marriage is not a success as in January 1884 he is accused of assaulting Martha Jane, and by then they were living apart. I have found 2 children who could be theirs - Charles, born 1887 December Q in Derby, and Edith Rachel b June Q 1889 in Stoke on Trent. I can find a baptism for Charles Warren in Derby in 1887, but he only has a mother (Martha) mentioned.

After this I lose track of all of them. I have tried looking for Martha and the children by themselves, and without surnames in case she remarried but haven't found anything, nor any likely death records. Any suggestions?

1881 census

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1881&indiv=try&h=2697125

Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FM%2F199558094%2F1

Charles Warren baptism

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61408/images/rs00013381_4454192-00147?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=368c472d998883641fd100848d0ce58b&usePUB=true&_phsrc=CRZ1288&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=3933144

[cbcarolyn]

I did have a hunt about and drew a blank, got a bit excited about one that died in Chesterfield, as some of his children were born in derbyshire, and thought maybe he was fibbing about his birthplace, but he wasn't!

[ozgirl]

Thanks for having a look Carolyn - I have thought maybe the family went abroad, but can't find anything there either. Ah well, back to the drawing board.

[cbcarolyn]

so odd I thought the same, but can't find them anywhere. I didn't look in the papers, you found something there, odd that he had children after the newspaper report.

[teasie]

odd that he had children after the newspaper report.

If the baptism of Charles is correct then the children were Martha's, but not Samuel's, as he is not named.

The address for his baptism is 85 Russell Street, Derby, and living there in 1891 are John & Pheobe (sic) Whitehouse, and their 17 year old son William. At the same address are:
Charles Gardner 38 b Evenlode, Worcs
Martha 25 wife b Rotherham
Charles 3 b Derby
Alice 2 b Allentown, Derbyshire
Annie 2m b Derby

Baptised 24 Aug 1892 - William s/o Charles & Martha Jane Gardner, 86 Russell Street

Charles may be Charles Warren, and Alice is possibly Edith Rachel, but I cant readily find a birth registration for Annie or William.

By 1901 they are at 34, Graham Street, Derby as Gardiner. Martha is 33 & born Cradley, Staffordshire! There is an additional son, George aged 3, and this is possibly his birth:

GARDNER, GEORGE mmn WHITEHOUSE GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in SHARDLOW Volume 07B Page 504

Baptism at Osmaston by Derby 10 Jan 1898 - George s/o Charles & Martha Jane Gardner, Osmaston

[teasie]

Following on from the above, in 1911 at 102 Russell St Derby:

Martha Gardner 44 b Rotherham
Charles 23
William 18
George 13
Lily 7
Phoebe Whitehouse, 75, mother b Wostershire (sic)

Lily's birth: GARDINER, LILY MAY mmn WHITEHOUSE GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 646

ADDED: Charles Sr appears to be in the workhouse, aged 58, Single, Ironworks General Labourer, b Gloucs

[teasie]

Have you ruled out the Samuel Warren who died Belper Registration District in 1916, aged 59 (born c1857)? Although 'your' Samuel was baptised in 1860, he's aged 3 on the 1861 census.

ADDED: Scrap that, he's the one born Turnditch, s/o Samuel & Mary

[cbcarolyn]

no idea why I didn't think of following up the baptism address

wonder why Edith changed.

what a great find.

[cbcarolyn]

there seems to be a few more children, census says she had 11 children, 5 alive


GARDNER, CLARA WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1894 D Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 548
GARDNER, PHOEBE FLORENCE WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1896 M Quarter in DERBY Volume 07B Page 534
GARDNER, BERTHA WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in SHARDLOW Volume 07B Page 503
GARDNER, JOHN THOMAS WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1898 D Quarter in SHARDLOW Volume 07B Page 475
GARDINER, HENRY WHITEHOUSE
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in SHARDLOW Volume 07B Page 514

[Darksecretz]

Name: Samuel Warren
Death Age: 77
Birth Date: abt 1860
Registration Date: Jan 1937
[Feb 1937]
[Mar 1937]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Chesterfield
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 1047

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=22616685&tid=&pid=&queryId=4b8104a2ddad84b1f2a11db304a6b143&usePUB=true&_phsrc=UJA37146&_phstart=successSource

[Darksecretz]

Not seeing much more, sorry.

[ozgirl]

Been having a look at the Gardners - looks like Martha and Charles didn't marry (not surprising if she was still married to Samuel.) Unfortunately as Samuel Warren is a reasonably common name I don't think I will be able to definitively say which one is mine - maybe the 1921 census when it is available will shed more light. Thanks Carolyn, Teasie and Julie.

[teasie]

I did wonder about the Samuel Warren in the census in Grass Valley, Nevada, California in 1901. Says he was born England & emigrated 1885, although he gives his birth as May 1859. Married Elizabeth Simmons in Colorado in 1890 and they had a son William John Warren born c1891, Colorado. By 1910 Elizabeth (transcribed on Ancestry as Warner) is back in Colorado without Samuel, and by 1920 describes herself as divorced.

There is a record on Ancestry which seems to be taken from Naturalisation records, and this time he says he arrived 1888 or 1883. The Naturalisation is not online, but the notes on Ancestry say "Extracted from original records located at the Colorado State Archives in Denver. Place of birth is also provided." The records appear to have been compiled by the Foothills Genealogical Society of Colorado under the reference Jefferson County, Colorado Natrualization Records1862-1920 , so it may be worth seeing if they can rule him in/out by reference to his PoB.

I think he may be back in California in 1930, aged 70 & a coal miner, but now says emigrated 1882, although I cant find him in the interim years, or his death.

[ozgirl]

Thanks Teasie will go have a look.

[cbcarolyn]

I did wonder about the Samuel Warren in the census in Grass Valley, Nevada, California in 1901. Says he was born England & emigrated 1885, although he gives his birth as May 1859. Married Elizabeth Simmons in Colorado in 1890 and they had a son William John Warren born c1891, Colorado. By 1910 Elizabeth (transcribed on Ancestry as Warner) is back in Colorado without Samuel, and by 1920 describes herself as divorced.

There is a record on Ancestry which seems to be taken from Naturalisation records, and this time he says he arrived 1888 or 1883. The Naturalisation is not online, but the notes on Ancestry say "Extracted from original records located at the Colorado State Archives in Denver. Place of birth is also provided." The records appear to have been compiled by the Foothills Genealogical Society of Colorado under the reference Jefferson County, Colorado Natrualization Records1862-1920 , so it may be worth seeing if they can rule him in/out by reference to his PoB.

I think he may be back in California in 1930, aged 70 & a coal miner, but now says emigrated 1882, although I cant find him in the interim years, or his death.

I had him and his death a possible, but thought he couldn't have gone as early as 1882. But if you team up with the Nevada guy in 1885 then it could be a possibility. I had also dismissed the Nevada and the LA men as the same as he said single - didn't occur that it would be as modern as being divorced and would be 'single'.

I did look for crossings and found none, I think a few to Canada? can't remember now

this is the 1930 census https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...1?pId=90631991

[ozgirl]

Not the California man - found his death cert and he comes from Penzance. Does confirm he was married to Elizabeth Simmons, but says he is now widowed.


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61...A1%3AQGKL-TPNF

[teasie]

Oh well, I guess ruling people out is better than leaving them with a question mark.