Help again please

[Nora]

Hello! I need help again :( Anyway, Trying to find a Rachel Daniel born 20 Oct 1869 according to 1939 reg, maybe in South Wales but I honestly don't know. On the 1881 and 1891 census she's living with her Grandmother, Martha Jones. In 1881 she's listed as the granddaughter living with John Jones & Martha Jones (grandparents), Lewis James, Sarah Ann James and Lewis and Sarah's children so I assumed that Sarah is Martha's daughter. I can't work out who Rachel's mother is. I can't find any birth records that match up. I've found a probable record for Sarah and her MMN is Griffiths but the only Rachel record I can find has MMN as Williams. So maybe Rachel is the daughter of a possible son of Martha but I can't find any of them in 1871 to try and work it out. Any help greatly appreciated!

[GallowayLass]

Is she either if these two?

	Rachel Daniel	John, Esther	abt 1869	Llanfihangel-AR-Arth, Carmarthenshire, Wales	Daughter	Llanfihangel AR Arth, Carmarthenshire
	Rachel Daniel	John, Margaret	abt 1870	Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales	Daughter	Upper Llanfrechva, Monmouthshire

[Nora]

The Monmouthshire one I found earlier and tried working backwards but couldn't find a Martha as mother of either parent and I got kinda confused so had to take a break haha. I don't think either are her though but I don't know. I don't know how to verify either.

[cbcarolyn]

I struggled to find the family, but have now located the census for 1881
Registration District: Middlesbrough
ED, institution, or vessel: 41
Piece: 4854
Folio: 70
Page Number: 27


Lewis James 36
Sarah Ann James 24
Edmond James 3
Martha James
John Jones 59
Martha Jones 59
Rachell Dawill 11


and found the James family in 1901

The daughter Sarah Ann may have a MMN of Daniels on Martha and John Thomas b 1891 births not found them all yet.

So I am thinking maybe John Jones is step father?

will come back to it, unless someone else picks it up.

[teasie]

You dont say where the family is in the 1881 & 1891 census, but I'm assuming they're the ones in Linthorpe, Middlesbrough?

1881 30 Jameson Street, Linthorpe
Lewis James 36 Puddler
Sarah Ann 24 wife
Edmond 3 son
Martha 8m daur
John Jones 59 father in law Cinder Burner
Martha Jones 59 mother in law
Rachell Daniel 11 granddaughter

1891 Jamieson Street, Linthorpe
John D Jones 69 Labourer b Wales
Martha 69 wife b Wales
John Jones 28 grandson in law b Wales
Rachel JONES 21 granddaughter b Wales
Lloyd/Floyd Jones 9m son b Middlesbrough

Lloyd/Floyd appears to be Rachel’s son, and according to both the GRO and Middlesbrough Registrars, his name is actually ILLTYD:
DANIEL, ILLTYD (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 521

By 1901 Lewis & Sarah Ann are at 69, Bulmer Street, Middlesbrough, with Sarah’s PoB given as Aberschan, Monmouthshire. From the birth of her children her maiden name was also DANIEL/S

JAMES, JOHN THOMAS mmn DANIELS GRO Reference: 1890 J Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 57
JAMES, SARAH ANN mmn DANIELS GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 538
JAMES, ELIZABETH ANN mmn DANIEL GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 528

Edmond & Martha from the 1881 census:
DANIELS, EDMUND LEWIS JAMES (no mmn) GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 226 ( guess his name is a strong hint to his father!)
JAMES, MARTHA ELIZABETH mmn DANIELS GRO Reference: 1880 S Quarter in MIDDLESBROUGH Volume 09D Page 571

Sarah Ann was born c1857, and is married with a 3 year old by 1881, so likely to have married Lewis James c1878. The nearest I can find is 1877 Auckland, Durham, Lewis JAMES and (same page) Sarah Ann DANIELS.

As Sarah & Rachel both had the surname DANIEL/S, I suspect that John Jones was Martha’s second husband, and this could be their marriage:

Q1 1873 Auckland, Durham – John JONES and (same page) Martha DANIEL

ADDED: Carolyn types faster than me,,,, but snap!

[Guest]

what about this birth

DANIEL, RACHEL	WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 124

[teasie]

Following ILLTYD, by 1901 his mother Rachel is married to John Jones and is at 12 Bulmer Street, Middlesbrough - the same street as Sarah Ann. Rachel's PoB is Monmouthshire NK

Sarah Ann said she was born Aberyschan, which is in the Pontypool RD, so this is possibly her birth:
DANIEL, SARAH ANN mmn GRIFFITHS GRO Reference: 1857 S Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 124

The only Rachel Daniel/s I can see in that area in 1871 is with parents John & Margaret Daniel, and sister Selina aged 3, but the nearest birth I can find to 'Selina' is this one, which matches the mmn for Rachel:

DANIEL, RASALAMA mmn WILLIAMS GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in PONTYPOOL Volume 11A Page 134

[teasie]

The family mentioned above with daughters Rachel & ‘Selina’ is headed by John b Blaina, so this looks like him with his parents & siblings in 1851:

Nightingale Row, Llanvrechva Upper, Pontypool in 1851 – HO107/2450/38/14
William Daniel 31 Fireman b Monmouthshire
Martha 27 b Glamorgan (Myrthyr?)
Elizabeth 10 b Bet[…], Monmouthshire
John 7 b Blaina
Mary Ann 5 b Blaina
Ann 1 b Blaina

By 1881 John & his wife Margaret are in Chatham – and their daughter Rachel is not with them:
21, George Street, Chatham – RG11/893/133/28
John Daniels 39 Iron Worker
Margaret 38
Rosalaina 13
Daniel 10
Martha 6 b Brompton, Kent

All except Martha b Monmouthshire, but transcribed on FMP as Merionethshire
DANIELS, MARTHA mmn WILLIAMS GRO Reference: 1874 S Quarter in MEDWAY Volume 02A Page 489

So its looking a good possibility that the birth registration suggested by Val could well be right, and that John Daniel(s) and Margaret Williams are her parents.

Rachel's 1890 marriage to John Jones should hopefully confirm this.

ADDED: 1871 census with Rachel, 'Selina', John & Margaret: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55Z-RT5

[kylejustin]

Might have missed something, but rachel daniels' mother seems to be a williams, but no birth for sarah daniels' with williams, but griffiths as mother's maiden name?

sounds like the easiest way to sort it out would be the marriage of widowed martha daniel to john jones...as this would give her father's name.

[teasie]

Might have missed something, but rachel daniels' mother seems to be a williams, but no birth for sarah daniels' with williams, but griffiths as mother's maiden name?

sounds like the easiest way to sort it out would be the marriage of widowed martha daniel to john jones...as this would give her father's name.

Rachel is Sarah Ann's niece, not her sister.

Sarah Ann is the daughter of Martha (Griffiths) and William Daniel(s)
John (who married Margaret Williams) is the son of the same couple, and they are the parents of Rachel.

Martha (Griffiths) Daniel/s married John Jones in Auckland, Durham in 1873, and became Martha Jones

[Nora]

Rachel is Sarah Ann's niece, not her sister.

Sarah Ann is the daughter of Martha (Griffiths) and William Daniel(s)
John (who married Margaret Williams) is the son of the same couple, and they are the parents of Rachel.

Martha (Griffiths) Daniel/s married John Jones in Auckland, Durham in 1873, and became Martha Jones

This is perfect, thank you so much. I'd found all of this but just couldn't fit it all together and kept getting confused trying to join it all up. I'll go over it all properly tomorrow but I'm pretty sure you've solved it for me so thank you all

[cbcarolyn]

Ooh good find everyone I was getting there - but needed to sleep, just realised the other post was connected

https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/research-advice/family-history-research/1316978-help-with-finding-someone

Nora - it's always a good idea to put more detail in your posts, as it can help piece everything together.

teasie I hadn't unearthed nearly as much so didn't have as much to type! I was looking in Wales census for Rachel originally!