How do we differentiate between Fact and Fiction?

[Paulc]

Another typical example, you can pay to get it altered by the GRO, I think it’s an astronomical charge of around £90 though

[PhotoFamily]

That’s 3 years apart, that’s not even close!

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As early as 1862, as late as 1872. It took a while to find his and my g'grandfather's births in the old world (Donegal), and the varying DOBs was part of the problem. Elwyn was tremendously helpful. I really think the family was in disarray. Their father married late in life, then lost three wives in succession. I don't think my g'g'uncle was trying to hide things - I think he didn't know.

[Janet in Yorkshire]

I've probably posted this one before, but will add it here. (Took me years to get to the bottom of it all!)
In 1858 my 2xgt grandfather married spinster Sarah Holt, and according to the marriage cert, d/o George Kirby. After many false trails over nearly 20 years, I eventually unravelled the mystery as more records became available and were easier to access. It turned out Sarah was baptised as Sarah Watson, daughter of Ann Watson, who had had two earlier children with her husband John Watson, although he had disappeared by 1830. In 1832 Ann Watson (no marital status given) married George Kell and they had several children - in 1841 census the couple were recorded in the village of Holme with all known children recorded as Kell, including 10 year old Sarah Kell. Ann Kell died in 1849 and in 1851 her widow George was recorded in Holme, along with some of the children, including a 20 year old Sarah Watson, recorded as single and his daughter in law, but in actual fact, his step-daughter.
The clincher was the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert of my gt gt grandparents, Easter and George Fenton. They turned out to be mother and son; Esther had been born and baptised at Holme in 1796 and her maiden name was Holt. She had a younger sister Ann, born Holme 1798, who later married John Watson in 1817, in the neighbouring village, where their two known children and an additional daughter of Ann Watson were all baptised.
Presumably Esther (and probably Sarah) knew that Mr Kell was not Sarah's father, nor was her mother's first husband Mr Watson, so when she married she used her mother's maiden name - Holt. I'm not sure who George Kirby (father of the bride) was. Could have been Sarah's natural father (although I have never been able to identify a likely candidate) or a corruption of George Kell or a name plucked out of the air!
So, it seems that the only time that gt gt grandma was recorded as Sarah Holt was on her wedding day. The search was quite a work out, lasting over a couple of decades. Esther and Ann Holt had six surviving siblings; the eldest, Ruth, had an illegitimate daughter named Sarah Holt, whom I had thought was "mine," until I eventually discovered her death and burial in 1844. Back to the drawing board and the discovery of another Sarah Holt, daughter of another sibling Swithin Holt, but both year and place of birth were out and also I could track her as Sarah Holt, single, after the 1858 marriage and change of surname of MY Sarah.

So, never give up, don't take it for granted that the written word is always correct and keep on asking - when, where, how, why, what if etc? When I started this game nearly 40 years ago, I was given the advice "try to find three pieces of evidence to match each 'fact'. " I've always tried to stick to that and have come to the conclusion that, if something doesn't sit quite right, then it probably isn't right, so keep on ferreting away until you are convinced that you really do seem to have got it right.

[maesglasssclub]

Hi All, my Nan who I have named the Mysterious Florence, She stated in Census records she was born in Marseille France, but I could not find any record of a birth in France or this country, her age went up and down to suit the occasion, so she was very hard to pin down, I decided to put the information I found on to a spread sheet in a chronological order, I done this over a very long period of time, when eventually I got to the truth, she was almost unrecognizable from the person I was searching for, before I attach the spread sheet, and I dont know how it will come out of here, she was a very loving and caring person.

YEAR	NAME	AGE	ADDRESS	COMMENTS
1891 c	John Purnell	32	Mendelgief road	1 son 4 daughters living with them
			blue house cottage
1893	Florence Cox ?	19 ?	18 Denmark St Bristol	married George Butcher, had three children all born in Bristol
	found out later Couxe			on her marriage certificate they are both 19, but suspect she was only 17 or 18 max he was down as living next door at No19 ?.
1897	Rose Purnell	9		Rose admitted to Alexander Road School, on the 6th Sep 1897
				D.O.B 1st June 1888, Father John Purnell. Ilving at 26 Marion Street, Pill.
1898	Lucy Purnell	11		Lucy Admitted to Alexander Road School 6th June 1898 D.O.B 9th December 1889, living at 26 Marion Street, Pill
				December same year mother removes child from school Stating they were leaving the district.
1900	John Purnell	41	30 Wolsely Street	Johns Directory listing
1900	Gladys Ruby Butcher	6	87 Baldwin Street	Gladys Ruby butcher starts Alexander road school, 11/09/1900
				Father George Butcher D.O.B 06/05/1894
				she had also attended the infants school 1898.
1901 c	John Purnell	42	87 Baldwin Street	3 sons 2 daughters living with them , he has 8 children in total with his wife Ellen
1901 c	Florence Butcher	26	87 Baldwin Street	1 son 2 daughters, moved to newport after 1998
	other purnells found in the 1901 kelly,s directory			Emma, 34, East Usk St John 33, Archibald street Maindee Augustus, timber dealer Rudry Street Maindee
1902				27th Oct 1902, Newport Union records state Mizzine infant taken out by father.
1902	Gladys Butcher	8	87 Baldwin Street	School record Alexanda girls school, states left area to return to Bristol 27th June 1902,
				read an entry in the Newport Union Poor house records(now St Woolos Hospital) dated 16th Oct 1902
				Gladys 1893, George 1985, Gweneth 1898, Milli, 1901 children of geo & Florence Butcher seaman.
				transfered from Long Ashton union hence to the Beeches.
1903	John Purnell	44	82 Marion Street	This is the year I believe John and Florence got together
				June 5th 1903 entry in Newport Union record book, Ruby 1893, George 1895, Emily 1897, Gweneth
				1901, transfered from Long Ashton Union, transfer to Beeches. Names and years seems muddled,
				George should be Randolph, 1901 was Millicent and Emily and Gweneth are the same person, but could be Gladys.
				Although family believed they had gone London to get married
1904	John Purnell	45	86 Marion Street	they never did, later marrying George Pernarowski, she is said
				to be the Widow of George Butcher, (unable to find death of
				G A Butcher) but this proves she did not marry John Purnell.
1905	John Purnell	46	60 Lewis Steet
1906	John Purnell	47	52 Dock Street	Solicitors also at this house, Marie Louise born this year 29/08/1906
				this is the year that Randolph and Gladys butcher are on a passenger ship heading for Quebec or Montreal Canada as orphans under Dr Banardo,s Government Spenser Scheme. aged 10 and 11 date of arrival for gladys was 03/08/1906 ship:Tunisian and Randolph 11/08/1906, ship: Dominion.
				I have been unable to trace as yet Gweneth Emily.A butcher born 3rd qter 1898 bedminster bristol, Randolph died in canada december same year as he arrived 1906
1907	John Purnell	48	19 Wingate Street
1910	John Purnell	51	156 Dock Street	this is near bream place and just before the museum & art gallery
1911	Florence Butcher	36	156 Dock Street	listed till 1913, Percy James born 1912 possible break up for 3-4 yrs
1911	John Purnell	52	19 Wingate Street	listed till 1913
1912	Millicent Butcher	11		sent to Canada through Dr Barnardos dept Liverpool 14th June, arrived Quebec 23rd June on a ship called Tunisian taken into care by Newport Mon. She eventually married another British Home Child Edward Leach (Scotch) in St catherines Lincoln County, 18th sept 1923, he was sent to canada 1914 aged 17 on a ship called Hesperian, they crossed the border at Nigara falls to firstly Buffalo New York and then settled in Chicargo, they had
				two sons together, and the 1930 American census says they owned there house Valued at 9,000 dollar, Millicent died 1st June 1932 in Cook County, Chicargo, her husband was a carpenter builder, self employed.
1914	John Purnell	55	18 Adeline street	listed till 1916, Arthur born 1916, at this Address
				June 1914, Marie louise Purnell started at Alexandra Girls School.
				aged 8, no one took her to school, she left 1920 aged 14, previous School was Tredegar Wharf
1917	John Purnell	58	54 Alexandra Road	Restaurant till 1924, don’t know when they split up
1920	Florence Pernarowski	45	8 Wood St Cardiff	Married George Pernarowski in Cardiff, deducted 6 years off her age
				8 wood st cardiff is the address on the marriage certificate, very iffy ????
1923	Florence Pernarowski	48	3 Mountjoy Street	22/01/1923 P J Purnell my father attended Bolt St School for the first time, George Pernarowski took him to school.
1923	John Purnell, found an address not sure if its him		65, chepstow road	1925 he attended Bell vue School,Arthur Purnell started at Bell vue School 09/04/1923, George Pernarowski took him to school
				p j.purnell left 24/07/25 arthur left 28/07/27
	also found in the 1923 kelly,s directory			Rev Augustus Purnell 19 east usk road Newport, Fredrick George Purnell dock Street, Wlliam John Purnell, 11 Eton Road, newport, John Purnell ladder maker Tregare Street.
1924	Florence Pernarowski	49	3 Mountjoy Street	listed till 1933
1925	John Purnell	66		Died buried St Woolos
				July, August, sept 1925 Marie Louise Purnell Married Robert T Thompson, Qualified Marine Captain, but as yet not serving captain.
				, he was scottish.he was 9 years older than Marie, Cousin Gloria was registered birth, jan feb mar 1926.
1935	Florence Pernarowski	60	3 Mountjoy Street	This is the year that I think Florence my nan and George pernarowski split up
				have not found any reason as yet, possible they did not split up, he might have been involved in the war.
				Yes he was involved in the war serving the British naval forces and was killed on 26th August 1944 age 56
				I have since found his name on a memorial in London (tower hill) and a copy of his war medals off T.N.A.
1936	Florence Purnell	61	99 Corporation Road	Died 1960 aged 85
				for reasons unknown she returns to the surname of Purnell possible reason is to
				claim O.A.Pension, she could not claim it under Pernarowski, as she had lied about her age when they married
				Married, she stated 39 when I think she was 46 ?.
1937	John Purnell		19 Wingate Street	listed in the Argus 14th July 1937, page 13 PURNELL on july 13, john brother of Tabitha Powell
			I think this is the son of john purnell who was nans partner	PURNELL, on july 13th 1937, john dearly beloved husband of Clara Purnell, funeral leaving 19 Wingate street.
1944	George Pernarowski			record of a death to a Georges Pernarowski (boatswain)
				tower hill cemetry London age not known. 26/08/44 this was definitely nans husband, so perhaps they did not split up.
				I have now found that George Pernarowski was on a ship that was torpedoed and sunk off france.
1948	Gloria Thompson	22		our cousin gloria married William Hudson
1960	Florence Purnell		99 Corporation Road	Nan died this year aged 85, we think
1977	Marie Denuel	71	99 Corporation Road	Marie Purnell-butcher, then Purnell on its own, then she was Marie Thompson, and then Denuel, died this year.
1988	Josef Denuel	74	99 Corporation Road	Josef died this year, D.O.B 26/04/1914 he was my late Aunt Marie,s husband.
				I have recently been in contact through a geneology society with records kept in Canada and hope to have
				more information on Gladys Ruby Butcher very soon.
				Just discovered 08/05/09, that a Gladys Butcher returned to this country 1958 and settled in northampton she is said to have remained single, needs her birth certificate to confirm its the same person.
				Under the column Married or single, its states for widows mark as single, so I dont think this is her, keep searching.
“Mar 2019				Dna test links me and cousins to the LLOYD family
“Jun 2019				My nan was not born in Marseille as we thought, she was born Bath, Louise Jane Florence Speck, MMN: Cox

[Paulc]

Some incredible pieces of detective work here to unpick all the strands of evidence to reach the conclusions. I always say that it’s like doing a jigsaw puzzle without the picture. You have no idea what you are putting together until you have all the pieces. Sometimes, as in the examples above, the trigger can be the availability of new info and documents which is why it’s important to go back every now and again and review your work. I think we all have several examples like this where the pieces just don’t quite fit, it’s only by digging that we uncover the full story. It’s that kind of detective work that I love the most about family history

[Charney Jo]

It’s a really interesting topic, Paul. And lots of interesting stories showing why I love genealogy. It’s the untangling of it all that’s such good fun!

I have a more recent example, which shows name changes just occur sometimes, and even in recent years it would be almost impossible to untangle. My mother was born in Berlin in 1940. She had a German name - her parents were both German - but her father was killed and her mother married an English soldier and they came over to England shortly after the war. She was never formally adopted by the English soldier, but she took his surname and Anglicised her first name. So she was living until her marriage in the sixties with a different name to her birth name, completely unofficially. She then got married, using her “adopted” name, and only then applied for naturalisation. So her papers are in her married name, with her maiden name being her “adopted” name. I only became aware of this issue when I wanted to apply for family records in Germany where there are strict release rules - only to direct descendants - and I didn’t have a full paper trail to link me back to my maternal grandfather’s family, even though that was her birth surname.

[kylejustin]

I think tracing non english speaking immigrants is difficult to start with. So i believe it's less about lying than a heavy accent and poor english skills. Also the author of the document being able to interpret and be understood.

i have a german ancestor whose husband registered the kid's births. He stated on each she was born in berlin. I was surprised to find berlin records have survived, and investigated this for years and while could find evidence of her parents in berlin, 13 years before her birth, no birth for her. Turns out she was born in a small village in pomerania....which i would never have found if ancestry hadn't added some german records.

i also have a similar issue with another ancestor, named fernand on marriage and death. Born "mauritiser" on marriage. Aussie born wife registered the kids, called him fred on each, stated he was born in paris. He was born in port louis, mauritius....

[AntonyM]

A couple of points that may help ...

In England/Wales - birth registers don't show ANY surname for the child before 1969. That means that birth indexes work on the surnames of the parent(s) only, one or both depending on their marital status and which index you are looking at, so it is never an issue of a child being registered under a particular surname.

The husband of a married woman is not automatically assumed to be the father of her children, this is a common misunderstanding of the law. A married woman CAN name her husband as father of her child without him being present, but if she does that knowing it be false (or impossible - e.g. he died or left years before) then she commits an offence of perjury.

I have my parents original marriage certificate, which I got from their house when Dad moved into a home and we had to sell the house.

Mum lived on Alfred St and her father was Arthur Thomas. Not on the certificate, she lived on Alfred St and her dad was Alfred Thomas. Did they never spot it or did they not know how to amend it?.

I know the real name but in years to come people wont.

The register entry itself (the only original document) may be correct, but an error was made when the certificate was written out - you would need to know which to get it corrected.

Another typical example, you can pay to get it altered by the GRO, I think it’s an astronomical charge of around £90 though

GRO can never correct anything - the correction has to be made in the original register, which for a marriage could be held by the church, or the registration office. Getting a correction made to an old entry is not always impossible, but can be very difficult because of the evidential requirements necessary.

[PeteW1959]

I have always said that genealogy should be renamed 'educated and informed guessing'. Until we invent a time machine we can never be 100% certain of anything.

The information recorded can only ever be as good (or poor) as the information given, and that information can be misheard at the point of registration. Given that a large part of the population were illiterate, they would never know that names had been written down incorrectly.

Then there is copying of records and errors introduced at that stage. For the censuses prior to 1911 we never see the original schedule, only what the enumerator copied into his book. BMD certificates obtained from the GRO are hand-written copies of the original entry.

We can only be as careful as we can, check multiple sources, but at the end of the day I don't think we can be any better than 90% certain.