How do we differentiate between Fact and Fiction?

[Paulc]

I have been thinking about this a lot recently, when is a fact a genuine fact, even details we find on a Birth Certificate, a child’s name, a fathers name or the DOB Itself? How can we prove categorically that these details are in fact correct?

https://chiddicksfamilytree.com/2021...t-and-fiction/

[Gardengirl]

Very interesting and thought provoking, Paul.

[GallowayLass]

I have a classic example. My mother’s Uncle Tom. His gravestone has nothing but a name and a death date. His “brother” was the informant - actually a maternal uncle but Tom lived all his life with his aunts and uncles as their sibling. The name on the death certificate headstone reads Thomas Henderson Mitchell. The name on the headstone reads Thomas Mitchell. Not only did Tom never have a middle name (although his mother’s mother was a Henderson), Tom was not born Thomas at all but David McCarfrae. His mother was married to David McCarfrae snr. but left him shortly after David jnr. was born (there is documented evidence of lifelong periodic mental illness in the husband’s family) and the child was raised by his mother’s parents and his name changed to Thomas Mitchell. That one took me nearly forty years of researching to find and I only solved it two years ago. Also explains why Tom’s mother invented a marriage date on the birth certificates of three children to man she later lived with as “wife”. At least her lie was a consistent one - same date and place. She was not able to legally marry as Mr McCarfrae did not die till just a few years before she herself died.

UPDATE Here’s the start of my search. This is before I found out the truth so some of what is in the thread is now known to be wrong about Mary / Marion Mitchell’s whereabouts on censuses.
I have searched with various keywords but can’t find the thread about the discovery. Sorry Paul.

https://www.familytreeforum.com/foru...-it#post557114

[Paulc]

I have a classic example. My mother’s Uncle Tom. His gravestone has nothing but a name and a death date. His “brother” was the informant - actually a maternal uncle but Tom lived all his life with his aunts and uncles as their sibling. The name on the headstone reads Thomas Henderson Mitchell. Not only did Tom never have a middle name (although his mother’s mother was a Henderson), Tom was not born Thomas at all but David McCarfrae. His mother was married to David McCarfrae snr. but left him shortly after David jnr. was born (there is documented evidence of lifelong periodic mental illness in the husband’s family) and the child was raised by his mother’s parents and his name changed to Thomas Mitchell. That one took me nearly forty years of researching to find and I only solved it two years ago. Also explains why Tom’s mother invented a marriage date on the birth certificates of three children to man she later lived with as “wife”. At least her lie was a consistent one - same date and place. She was not able to legally marry as Mr McCarfrae did not die till just a few years before she herself died.

How on earth did you untangle all of that! I am very impressed with that.

[GallowayLass]

How on earth did you untangle all of that! I am very impressed with that.

Ah well now, there-in lies an exceedingly long tale. I’m sure I posted about it at the time on here. My joyous exclamation on the final discovery got me very black looks in SP centre. It was the end of another long day poring over records and I forgot where I was! I’ll try to find the thread later and post the link.

[PhotoFamily]

I've found a bunch of female ancestors who played fast and loose with their YOB in the censuses.

And then there's at least one who clearly did not know his DOB. Really, not even his YOB. My g'grandfather's full brother. His YOB is different in each census I find him in. And on his DC. And on his gravestone. Yeah, seriously, his DC says 1862, his gravestone says 1865. 1865 is correct. I think ;)

[Sylvia C]

My grandfather lied about his date and year of birth almost all his life, from saying he was 19 on his wedding certificate when he was really 17. His wife said she was 20 when she was really 19.

None of us knew, his son registered his date of birth as the one we all observed under strict instructions to attend, December 25, when it was really January 9, and also with the wrong year.

Grandfather knew, because he served in WW1, and his son found the true birth certificate hidden in a drawer when clearing the house. He didn't tell the rest of us.

I found out when I ordered his actual birth certificate about 15 years ago.


Then, or course, we all know that only the Mother can be certain as the true parent named on a birth certificate, and occasionally not even then! We can never categorically say that the named father is actually the "one".

[GallowayLass]

Then, or course, we all know that only the Mother can be certain as the true parent named on a birth certificate, and occasionally not even then! We can never categorically say that the named father is actually the "one".

That’s so true Sylvia. My late m-i-l had two birth certificates. The first correct one has her given name, middle name and surname, her mother’s name and no father’s name. There is a later RCE settling the paternity. The middle name was the birth father’s surname as was common practice. HOWEVER - m-i-l was brought up as the daughter of her actual maternal grandparents - all the family and many neighbours knew the truth though as did m-i-l before she started school. No formal adoption as it didn’t exist in Scotland when she was born. There is a 2nd birth certificate registered in a different office to the first one. It states that the child’s parents are the two people who were her actual grandparents. This is the one m-i-l used on marriage, divorce and remarriage. How her ‘father’ managed to get the illegal reregistration done is anybody’s guess. OH thinks probably Masonic influence was brought to bear on the Registrar who just happened to be the Master of the Lodge’s wife and the child’s family were high up in it. The previous generation having also been in the Master’s chair.

[GallowayLass]

Paulc Have added a link in #3 to a very early bit of my quest.

[pinefamily]

A very true article, Paul.
My paternal grandmother was registered with her mother's first husband's name. Yet she married with her mother's second husband's name. Going by records alone, it all looks fairly straight forward. However, first hand family lore says my grandmother was the child of the second husband. The first husband had deserted his family apparently.

[Sylvia C]

Pinefamily .................. it is true that in the registration of births for England and Wales, if the mother said she was married, it was automatically assumed that her child would have been fathered by the husband, unless the mother said otherwise and named the true father, with his permission.

The best example I got of how wrong this could be was when I was helping someone on GR years ago.

The woman had 5 or 6 children under her married name, but the person I was helping had never managed to find the death of her husband.

I eventually discovered he had died 10 years previously, and she had been a widow at the birth of each child!

[kylejustin]

My great great grandmother was a conway b.1870. In 1871-1891 census as such with her married then widowed mother b.1839. Father never home on census. Then got married 1892.

could never find a birth under conway for her or her brother. Father's name and occupation known from her marriage, but source of this info seems to be her mother.

struggled to find her mother pre "marriage" too. There is a visitor in one census called ingle. B.1840 in same place as 3rd great grandmother. Conveniently has a sister by the same name and birth details who disappears. Can't find documentary proof they are sisters, wittnesses, wills etc

births were found for the children under ingle, no father listed. Address same as 1871 census.

then with ancestry DNA, an elderly lady messaged me asking about bilsdon's, the ingle sister's maternal side. Turns out we matched DNA and she was descended twice (her grandparents were first cousins) from an aunt of the ingle's.

was stoked to have sorted the ingle side! Still no evidence for mr conway at all. I do wonder if she is telling the truth about him, or if she made up a consistent story.

[pinefamily]

I think it was true everywhere, Sylvia C. The example I gave was for South Australia. My grandmother was the first child for my great grandmother and her second husband, my great grandfather. The story goes that the first husband had deserted the family shortly before.
The next daughter was also registered under his name; the third not at all. Then there was a break of a few years,, before the rest were all registered under the true father's name. My great grandparents did not actually marry until after the death of the first husband.

[bubblebelle]

So very true Paul.

[Gmelliottuk]

I had the same just a few weeks ago with my research on my wife's side, that brought me to this forum in the first place.

A relative completely changing their surname between census records for no apparant reason. It was only because his YOB, profession, unusual forename, etc, that made me suspect this was the case. I eventually saw, with help from here, that his 'new' surname matched with another family in the same household in 1841, which led to another forum member discovering it was his mother's maiden name he took.

Still haven't solved why he did it, but gives me a completely new surname to delve into.

[Anne in Carlisle]

I have a family who started in Lincolnshire with the surname Arrand. After the suicide of the father the mother and children disappear. After a long, long search it was only the pattern of forenames, ages and place of birth that lead me to believe it was the same family now living on Bradford with the surname Gibson. They are all there for several censuses with the surname Gibson BUT they continued to register births and deaths using their 'real' surname Arrand. As the years went on one child was actually named George Gibson Arrand but I still have no idea why they used Gibson as an alternative name!

Anne

[Paulc]

Paulc Have added a link in #3 to a very early bit of my quest.

Thanks for the update to the story, sometimes we get there by hook or by crook, sometimes with help and sometimes with a stroke of luck or genius but how we get there sometimes I’ll never know!

[Paulc]

I've found a bunch of female ancestors who played fast and loose with their YOB in the censuses.

And then there's at least one who clearly did not know his DOB. Really, not even his YOB. My g'grandfather's full brother. His YOB is different in each census I find him in. And on his DC. And on his gravestone. Yeah, seriously, his DC says 1862, his gravestone says 1865. 1865 is correct. I think ;)

That’s 3 years apart, that’s not even close!

[Paulc]

Some great examples shown here of how careful we have to be before we accept something as factually correct! It could be wrong for any number of different reasons, either intentionally or otherwise, but people refer sometimes to certificates as “fact”, but as we all know, far from it!

[Lin Fisher]

I have my parents original marriage certificate, which I got from their house when Dad moved into a home and we had to sell the house.

Mum lived on Alfred St and her father was Arthur Thomas. Not on the certificate, she lived on Alfred St and her dad was Alfred Thomas. Did they never spot it or did they not know how to amend it?.

I know the real name but in years to come people wont.