Ireland help please

[Macbev]

After looking quickly through the stuff on Ancestry, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling that it is going to be all too easy to mix up the multitude of James /Thomas McWilliam families appearing there in the records. Just how much has your cousin actually verified as being her McWilliams? For instance, someone has the Thomas McWilliam who died 1928 with a marriage cert showing a mother who is NOT Mary Armstrong. Will need to progress carefully.

[GallowayLass]

After looking quickly through the stuff on Ancestry, I'm starting to get an uneasy feeling that it is going to be all too easy to mix up the multitude of James /Thomas McWilliam families appearing there in the records. Just how much has your cousin actually verified as being her McWilliams? For instance, someone has the Thomas McWilliam who died 1928 with a marriage cert showing a mother who is NOT Mary Armstrong. Will need to progress carefully.

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[Karamazov]

Ancestry has a 1851 Irish census entry for William McWilliam, s/o James McWilliam & Mary nee Armstrong, His address is given as G. Reid, 'The Lodge' Crieve, P.O Co. Monaghan, head of family given as Thomas Mc William. Residence Thomas McWilliam, whose 1851 residence seems to beTullynamolloge, Tassagh Townland, Keady Parish, Armagh.
I assume this would be the grandfather. No age given for William, but i am almot certan I saw a reference to elsewhere (off to backtrack)

This is actually William McWilliams OAP application which he made in 1921.
Image here for convenience: http://censussearchforms.nationalarc...6685_00850.pdf

So he is a another son of James McWilliam and Mary Armstrong and therefore the brother of the Thomas McWilliam that GL is looking to track in post 1.
Looking at all the detail on the image, he wasn’t sure of his actual DOB giving it as between 1850-1855. It looks like he was found in 1851 and his Oap application was successful and that he was found in a household with Thomas McWilliam as head of household, presumably his and James McW’s grandfather as Macbev says.

The fullest details of successful searches I’ve seen for members of my family included the names and ages of everyone in the household, not just the OAP applicant, plus the year of marriage for the parents. No such luck here though...some researchers give only the info relating to the applicant.
All you can deduce from it is that Thomas McWilliam was still alive in 1851, (but we don’t know whether he was married or a widower) that James McW and Mary Armstrong were in Ireland in 1851 and that they had a son William McWilliam who was born 1851 or before. I wonder where this William McW was living in 1921 when the application was made ?
Frustrating that the application was made through a go-between, G Reid.

Background info re OAP applications here for reference: http://censussearchforms.nationalarc...ch/cs/home.jsp

Christine

[GallowayLass]

Ancestry has a 1851 Irish census entry for William McWilliam, s/o James McWilliam & Mary nee Armstrong, His address is given as G. Reid, 'The Lodge' Crieve, P.O Co. Monaghan, head of family given as Thomas Mc William. Residence Thomas McWilliam, whose 1851 residence seems to beTullynamolloge, Tassagh Townland, Keady Parish, Armagh.
I assume this would be the grandfather. No age given for William, but i am almost certain I saw a reference to elsewhere (off to backtrack)

That is a brilliant find. Thank you. I have sent the image to my cousin. The marriage certificate 1847 shows the groom’s father was indeed Thomas.
The second of Thomas and Flora’s children was called William. There was a one named Thomas too.
I see from the same database that there are loads of entries for McWILLIAMS in Co. Tyrone but none of them have the correct parents.

[GallowayLass]

Macbev The year of birth / age on the top right. Is William saying that he’s not sure exactly when he was born, just sometime between 1850 and 1855 or is he saying that when he lived with his Grampa Thomas in 1851, he was 5 years old? I’m not familiar with this dataset so not sure what it means.

[Karamazov]

Woohoo - I think I’ve tracked down the William McWilliams of the 1921 pension application. I think G Reid was more than likely his employer
1901

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Monaghan/Creeve/Creeve/1627810/

1911

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Creeve/Creeve/800949/

13 children of whom 10 living. Married for 33 years.
Ill leave it to you GL if you want to follow up on this branch of the family.

From looking for the birth of Anna Frances aged 8 in 1911, turns out her mother’s maiden name was Lavery

1878 marriage of William MCWilliams and Elizabeth Lavery gives his father’s name as James McWilliams

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1878/11106/8064920.pdf

Think this probably his death in 1923 - as Castleblayney would be the right Reg district. Informant daughter Minnie is probably alternative name for Mary from 1901 and 1911 censuses.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1923/05053/4383978.pdf

Christine

[Karamazov]

Macbev The year of birth / age on the top right. Is William saying that he’s not sure exactly when he was born, just sometime between 1850 and 1855 or is he saying that when he lived with his Grampa Thomas in 1851, he was 5 years old? I’m not familiar with this dataset so not sure what it means.

See my post 23 “Looking at all the detail on the image, he wasn’t sure of his actual DOB giving it as between 1850-1855.”

Christine

[Karamazov]

That is a brilliant find. Thank you. I have sent the image to my cousin. The marriage certificate 1847 shows the groom’s father was indeed Thomas.
The second of Thomas and Flora’s children was called William. There was a one named Thomas too.
I see from the same database that there are loads of entries for McWILLIAMS in Co. Tyrone but none of them have the correct parents.

I’m not sure why you are looking in County Tyrone when all the early records we’ve found place them in County Armagh. Have I missed something?

Christine

[GallowayLass]

Karamazov
Only that my cousin was sure she has something that said he was born in County Tyrone but she has just told me she can’t find it now. All the ancestry trees for him have him born there but there’s not a scrap of evidence or source amongst them. She asked if I could help with the story she had just had the other day from her cousin on the maternal side (I’m the paternal side) about Thomas who died 1928 in Kirkintilloch having had to leave Ireland due to sheep stealing; something I have drawn a blank on so far with Irish newspapers on FMP.
The first thing I did was look for baptisms to James McWILLIAMS and Mary ARMSTRONG to establish where in Tyrone he might have been naughty and found none at all. I widened my search (familysearch) and still found none but up popped the 1847 marriage which was indexed as County Armagh. From there I bought the marriage in nidirect - the poor quality copy, and checked out transcripts of Scotland’s censuses on FMP and ancestry to see if the county was named but no joy. I bought the image of the 1911 census on SP but still nothing other than “Ireland”. So I posted on here for help.

[GallowayLass]

Woohoo - I think I’ve tracked down the William McWilliams of the 1921 pension application. I think G Reid was more than likely his employer

Thank you so much. I have no interest in chasing this family up for my tree but I will pass it all on to my cousin and if she adds it all to her ancestry tree, some contact may come from it in the future. She’s stunned how far things have progressed already.

[GallowayLass]

I have found another tree this one has Thomas John McWILLIAMS with correct parents being born 1850 Keady, Armagh but no source. There are several siblings including the William who was found in the 1901 and 1911 censuses and the 1851 pension substitute.
The fly in the ointment is that the tree owner has his dying 1905 in Keady of bronchitis. A 55 year old widower and labourer. I have downloaded the death certificate and it’s not Thomas John McWILLIAMS just Thomas. Given that my cousin has the Scottish marriage and death certificates for the man who has James McWILLIAMS and Mary ARMSTRONG as parents, and that the surname McWILLIAMS is common in Keady parish, I think the tree owner has got the wrong death.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/68488513/person/110187418326/facts

[Karamazov]

Another woohoo - I’m pretty sure that this is the will of Mary McWilliams nee Armstrong.

The Will of Mary M'Williams late of Tullynamallogue County Armagh Widow who died 1 March 1891 at same place was proved at Armagh by William M'Williams of Trewmount Moy County Tyrone Labourer one of the Executors.

The will was made 8 Nov 1889.
You may be wondering about the executor William McWilliams popping up in County Tyrone, BUT in the 1901 census for him (see post 26) he has a son George very conveniently born in Co Tyrone in 1891- here’s his birth to William McWilliams and Elizabeth Lavery
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....03/1896122.pdf

Bonus is that the whole will is available and it ticks all the boxes - Tullynamallogue, plus sons William McWilliams and Thomas John McWilliams plus two married daughters - Ellen Jane Shaw and Lizzie Crozier.

Will image is here: https://apps.proni.gov.uk/WillsCalen...aspx?id=199467

Unfortunately I can’t find a death for her that tallies with the 1 Mar 1891 date of death on either irishgenealogy.ie or nidirect.

Can anyone else find it - would be useful to know age at death and who the informant was.


Christine

[Karamazov]

...The son is;
Thomas McWILLIAMS born variously between 1846 - 1851/2 according to the info my cousin has. He is in Scotland from 1891 as he is on the census with his wife Flora and children at 32 Freeland Place, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire. He is a general labourer born c.1850 Ireland. Surname is McWILLIAM
1901 census has him now at 48 Hillhead, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire. He is a pit fireman born c.1846 Ireland. Surname is McWILLIAMS
1911 census has him still at 48 Hillhead, now a caretaker in an iron foundry and born c.1848, Ireland. Surname is McWILLIAMS
Sadly none of the censuses say where in Ireland he is from but according to the info the other cousin gave, he was from County Tyrone.
Probably quite significant but the family cannot be found together in 1881. There might be a match for Thomas as a lodger in West Calder but FMP transcript says he is single but he should be married.
...
Mary was born 1877 and William in late 1881


.

This looks like Thomas, Flora, Mary and William in 1881:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource
I’m using ancestry library edition so I hope I’ve adjusted the url so it takes you to the right place!
Christine

[Macbev]

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Oh, I don't dispute the marriage or death....just think I've seen a tree where someone attached that death to another family. Can't find it, but it may have been one of those dodgy familysearch trees.

[Macbev]

Unfortunately I can’t find a death for her that tallies with the 1 Mar 1891 date of death on either irishgenealogy.ie or nidirect. Can anyone else find it - would be useful to know age at death and who the informant was.

We already know her approximate age...she said she was 19 on her mar. cert in 1847, thus born abt 1828

The Belfast Newsletter 6 Mar 1891:

McWilliams - March 1, at her residence, Tullynamalogue, Keady, Mary McWilliams, aged 61 years. Deeply regretted byher children and a large circle of friends, William McWilliams

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer...ce&pId=1317768

[Karamazov]

The married daughters mentioned in Mary Armstrong McWilliams will (post 32):

Lizzie McWilliams married Richard Crozier in 1876

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1876/11154/8085809.pdf

Ellen McWilliams married William Shaw in 1880

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1880/11046/8040364.pdf

There are probably children of these marriages but I’ll leave that for your cousin to pursue...

Christine

[Karamazov]

We already know her approximate age...she said she was 19 on her mar. cert in 1847, thus born abt 1828

The Belfast Newsletter 6 Mar 1891:

McWilliams - March 1, at her residence, Tullynamalogue, Keady, Mary McWilliams, aged 61 years. Deeply regretted byher children and a large circle of friends, William McWilliams

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer...ce&pId=1317768

Oh, had overlooked that. Strange that no one seems to have registered her death though...

Christine

[Macbev]

Lizzie McWilliams Crozier was b. abt 1857 Armagh
Family in 1901 here:https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...&rhSource=2533

Ellen Jane McWilliams Shaw was b. abt 1858, Armagh. Family in 1901 here: https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui...=successSource

[GallowayLass]

Karamazov

Macbev


You ladies are absolute stars! Will pass all this on to my cousin.
I think there is little doubt now that all the siblings found so far of Thomas McWILLIAMS who died in Kirkintilloch were born in and around Keady, County Armagh so the likelihood is Thomas was too.
His brother William who ended up in County Monaghan had one child (George) born County Tyrone. William must have gradually moved further away from home as his family grew and he changed employers over the years. Given George’s age on 1901 census, he would have been born c1891. By that time Thomas had already been in Scotland for 15 years so not really likely that he left from there to go to Scotland. When William married 1878 (2 years after Thomas married in Scotland), William was still in County Armagh and the first of his children was born there and the next few in County Louth. So still nothing to tie Thomas to County Tyrone as per all the trees found apart from the last one I found yesterday. This last tree seems to be accurate apart from the wrong death info for our Thomas John but it still lacks any baptisms for the children of James McWILLIAMS and Mary ARMSTRONG. My cousin is going to get in touch with the tree owner and also the few private tree owners that have Thomas born in County Tyrone to ask where they got that info from.
I found a FB page for 1st Keady / Temple Presbyterian and they accept messages so I have suggested she ask if they have any baptismal registers still in the church or know where they are deposited.
The connection to her cousin comes through Thomas and Flora’s son David who emigrated to USA and died there in the 1960s. My cousin is a descendant of Thomas and Flora’s firstborn child Mary 1877. My cousin’s family emigrated to Canada in the 1970s.

[PhotoFamily]

I found a FB page for 1st Keady / Temple Presbyterian and they accept messages so I have suggested she ask if they have any baptismal registers still in the church or know where they are deposited.

PRONI has an online catalog of the parish records located there
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/sites/de...tober-2019.pdf


P. 1st Keady (or The Temple) Baptisms, 1838-1938; marriages, 1845MIC1P/296 1