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    Ireland help please

    I’m trying to help a cousin who has just received news from another cousin on her other side that her 2xGGF ?had to? leave Ireland because of sheep stealing.
    I have found his parents’ marriage this morning on civil registration records on familysearch and by the date, the family were Protestant of some description. The marriage of James McWILLIAMS aged 23 to Mary ARMSTRONG aged 19 was 3 December 1847 at Temple, County Armagh. Groom’s father Thomas McWILLIAM and bride’s father John ARMSTRONG. I have now seen the actual certificate as the image is pretty grotty. It’s hard to make out the places of residence for the couple and the actual parish but the transcript on nidirect says 1st Keady / Temple Presbyterian although the image actually says “Temple Meeting House in the County of Armagh in the parish of ?”
    The date is too early for civil births to James and Mary so I’m hunting for baptisms for a son named Thomas and any siblings but without any luck.

    The son is;
    Thomas McWILLIAMS born variously between 1846 - 1851/2 according to the info my cousin has. He is in Scotland from 1891 as he is on the census with his wife Flora and children at 32 Freeland Place, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire. He is a general labourer born c.1850 Ireland. Surname is McWILLIAM
    1901 census has him now at 48 Hillhead, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire. He is a pit fireman born c.1846 Ireland. Surname is McWILLIAMS
    1911 census has him still at 48 Hillhead, now a caretaker in an iron foundry and born c.1848, Ireland. Surname is McWILLIAMS
    Sadly none of the censuses say where in Ireland he is from but according to the info the other cousin gave, he was from County Tyrone.
    Probably quite significant but the family cannot be found together in 1881. There might be a match for Thomas as a lodger in West Calder but FMP transcript says he is single but he should be married.

    Thomas McWILLIAMS married Flora HUTCHESON 1876 in Kirkintilloch. Entry on SP
    There are 10 children baptised to the couple in Kirkintilloch on familysearch but I smell a rat somewhere (just a feeling in my waters). None of the baptisms are before 1886 and the first two known children are not listed. Mary was born 1877 and William in late 1881 probably but not registered till 1882. Both births are on SP. Very idd that neither Flora nor Mary are in Scotland in 1881. I have searched ancestry, FMP and SP without success.
    Thomas John McWILLIAMS died 8 September 1928 at 39 Canal Street, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire aged 76 so born c.1851/2. Entry on SP. No idea where the middle name John came from.

    Sorry this has been so long a read. If you have got this far, thanks for your patience. I thought it best to post anything that might be significant.
    Can anybody find Thomas McWILLIAMS’ baptism in Ireland or any siblings? Also are there any super newspaper searchers that could come up
    with anything criminal for Thomas before 1876 even it’s not sheep stealing I have failed there too.

    #2
    Sounds like a question for Elwyn
    ------------------------------------------------------
    My Families
    London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
      Sounds like a question for Elwyn
      Hopefully he will be around sometime.

      Comment


        #4
        Not everything checks out and wondered if you had come across this family in Lancashire 1881, Thomas c 1853 furnaceman born Ireland

        https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-T326

        Thomas, Flora, Mary and William McWilliams

        On the census return, Flora's birthplace is crossed out and changed to Scotland
        Elaine

        Looking for Ward, Moore, Hunt, Warren...and who was Gertrude Wills

        http://leicestermoores.tribalpages.com
        http://wardnottsleics.tribalpages.com

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
          Thomas John McWILLIAMS died 8 September 1928 at 39 Canal Street, Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire aged 76 so born c.1851/2. Entry on SP. No idea where the middle name John came from.
          So, did you buy the death cert?

          Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
          The date is too early for civil births to James and Mary so I’m hunting for baptisms for a son named Thomas and any siblings but without any luck
          and did you look on rootsireland.ie/ - I think you must buy time to even look at the index, but I think you can buy just a day at a time if you'd like. As I recall, no images, just transcriptions.
          ------------------------------------------------------
          My Families
          London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
            Did you look on rootsireland.ie/ - I think you must buy time to even look at the index, but I think you can buy just a day at a time if you'd like. As I recall, no images, just transcriptions.
            Try https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

            Free site, with both church and civil records available. Images also available for some records. However, I had a quick look for you and could not find anything that met your specifications. I have a similar case...OH's ggrandmother was born & married in Letterkenny, Donegal . The marriage took place in the 3rd Presbyterian Church there. She married a Scot and returned to Letterkenny for the birth of the first and third child although they appear on all the Scottish censuses until they emigrated to Canada.
            I found the civil records +image for the marriage of his gggrandparents there in 1847. May be worth your while to check out the site yourself.

            Beverley



            Comment


              #7
              Not that it gets you any further but the only McWilliam in Co Armagh Griffith Valuation is a John McWilliam in Keady parish.
              However, there are a good number of McWilliams, including a James and a Thomas in Keady parish.
              Co Armagh was the last county where valuations were completed in 1865.
              You can search for free very easily here: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffi...ion=nameSearch

              Christine
              Researching:
              HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post

                So, did you buy the death cert?

                and did you look on rootsireland.ie/ - I think you must buy time to even look at the index, but I think you can buy just a day at a time if you'd like. As I recall, no images, just transcriptions.
                Cousin bought the death certificate. I looked at irishgenealogy.ie, nothing there for Thomas McWILLIAMS) in either Armagh or Tyrone that I could see. I haven’t checked the one you mentioned.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Elaine View Post
                  Not everything checks out and wondered if you had come across this family in Lancashire 1881, Thomas c 1853 furnaceman born Ireland

                  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-T326

                  Thomas, Flora, Mary and William McWilliams

                  On the census return, Flora's birthplace is crossed out and changed to Scotland
                  I never thought of looking in England. Thanks for that. I will go get that image on either anc or FMP. Flora was indeed born in Scotland in Kirkintilloch.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Macbev View Post

                    Try https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

                    Free site, with both church and civil records available. Images also available for some records. However, I had a quick look for you and could not find anything that met your specifications. I have a similar case...OH's ggrandmother was born & married in Letterkenny, Donegal . The marriage took place in the 3rd Presbyterian Church there. She married a Scot and returned to Letterkenny for the birth of the first and third child although they appear on all the Scottish censuses until they emigrated to Canada.
                    I found the civil records +image for the marriage of his gggrandparents there in 1847. May be worth your while to check out the site yourself.
                    Thanks Macbev. That’s the site I also checked as well as familysearch and didn’t find a match on either.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Karamazov View Post
                      Not that it gets you any further but the only McWilliam in Co Armagh Griffith Valuation is a John McWilliam in Keady parish.
                      However, there are a good number of McWilliams, including a James and a Thomas in Keady.
                      Co Armagh was the last county where valuations were completed in 1865.
                      You can search for free very easily here: http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffi...ion=nameSearch

                      Christine
                      Thanks for that link. It may help me with the town land names fir the residences for the bride and groom. I have figured out from genuki that the parish on the poor quality marriage in 1st Keady is Derrynoose / Derraghnuse.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        From all the free site suggestions, I have now got the townlands on that marriage worked out. Groom from Tullynamallogue which is in Keady parish and bride from Ballynagolan which is in Derrynoose parish.
                        Have been checking all the McWILLIAMS in Griffiths for Armagh in both those parish but none are in the matching townlands. There was just about 20 years though between the marriage and the valuation so maybe the right family is there but in another property.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post

                          Thanks Macbev. That’s the site I also checked as well as familysearch and didn’t find a match on either.
                          The marriage is on irishgenealogy.ie but not immediately findable as it’s indexed with a gap in surname Mc William.
                          Anyway here it is: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....21/5375209.pdf

                          The townland residences for bride and groom look like Tullynamalley and Ballynagallan to me. I havent checked either just yet, but they’re certainly very different from what you’ve posted in post #11. What was the source of the poor quality image that you have seen?

                          Christine

                          PS I see you were posting while I was cross checking and you’ve worked out the townlands for yourself - variant spellings are a nightmare.
                          Researching:
                          HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I wouldn't be too bothered about the spelling differences for Irish place names. My Presbyterian Frizzells alternatively came from Drimanacht/ Drumanaught/ Drumanach. When we eventually visited, it seemed to be Newtown. Familky traditional favoured Ballymony (with just about as many variations)

                            Beverley



                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Macbev View Post

                              Try https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/

                              Free site, with both church and civil records available.
                              I love irishgenealogy, and look forward to them finishing the civil death registrations

                              but they have few parish records
                              https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/chu...ailable-online

                              and the few Protestant records that they have aren't from the area that we're talking about. RootsIreland is only database I know of that has a broad index of parish records, including Protestant.

                              GallowayLass I'm confused (not new) - where/when did Thomas McWilliams die?
                              ------------------------------------------------------
                              My Families
                              London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                                GallowayLass I'm confused (not new) - where/when did Thomas McWilliams die?
                                He died 1928 in Kirkintilloch, Scotland.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                                  Cousin bought the death certificate. I looked at irishgenealogy.ie, nothing there for Thomas McWILLIAMS) in either Armagh or Tyrone that I could see. I haven’t checked the one you mentioned....
                                  -------------------------
                                  He died 1928 in Kirkintilloch, Scotland.
                                  and did the Scottish DC have his POB?

                                  OK, so irishgenealogy's index doesn't cover the place that you need for a baptism, and FamilySearch's index for Protestant baptisms in Ireland is usually pretty spotty.
                                  ------------------------------------------------------
                                  My Families
                                  London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Karamazov View Post

                                    The marriage is on irishgenealogy.ie but not immediately findable as it’s indexed with a gap in surname Mc William.
                                    Anyway here it is: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy....21/5375209.pdf

                                    The townland residences for bride and groom look like Tullynamalley and Ballynagallan to me. I havent checked either just yet, but they’re certainly very different from what you’ve posted in post #11. What was the source of the poor quality image that you have seen?

                                    Christine

                                    PS I see you were posting while I was cross checking and you’ve worked out the townlands for yourself - variant spellings are a nightmare.
                                    I bought the cert from nidirect website. Here’s what I got. I haven’t much experience of NI research other than hubby’s Irish ancestors, also from County Armagh. I found various different spellings for one particular townland - Clanroll, Clanrole, Clanrolla and a couple of others that I can’t remember off the top of my head and the bride involved, I found various spellings of Lisniskey so I thought I had got the McWilliam and Armstrong ones right allowing for Irish versions and misspellings.

                                    3BD1E61A-D0D7-40D8-A377-4797A8D479AC.jpeg

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Ancestry has a 1851 Irish census entry for William McWilliam, s/o James McWilliam & Mary nee Armstrong, His address is given as G. Reid, 'The Lodge' Crieve, P.O Co. Monaghan, head of family given as Thomas Mc William. Residence Thomas McWilliam, whose 1851 residence seems to beTullynamolloge, Tassagh Townland, Keady Parish, Armagh.
                                      I assume this would be the grandfather. No age given for William, but i am almot certan I saw a reference to elsewhere (off to backtrack)

                                      Beverley



                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post

                                        I bought the cert from nidirect website. Here’s what I got. I haven’t much experience of NI research other than hubby’s Irish ancestors, also from County Armagh. I found various different spellings for one particular townland - Clanroll, Clanrole, Clanrolla and a couple of others that I can’t remember off the top of my head and the bride involved, I found various spellings of Lisniskey so I thought I had got the McWilliam and Armstrong ones right allowing for Irish versions and misspellings.

                                        3BD1E61A-D0D7-40D8-A377-4797A8D479AC.jpeg
                                        Hmm - that is poor.
                                        Back in the day I bought quite a few certs via NI direct but no real need to do that anymore since certs for the six counties of NI are available free via irishgenealogy.ie up to partition in 1921.
                                        Irishgenealogy.ie now has Northern Ireland birth certs from 1864-1919 ish (they haven’t updated yet to include 1920 births), marriages 1845-1921 and deaths 1864-1921 (index only 1864-1870 but digitised thereafter.
                                        Like PF I’m impatiently waiting for them to digitise the 1864-1870 deaths and complete the 1920 births.

                                        Christine
                                        Researching:
                                        HOEY (Co Fermanagh, other Ulster counties and Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada) BANNIGAN and FOX (Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland and Portland, Maine, USA) REYNOLDS, McSHEA, PATTERSON and GOAN (Corker and Creevy, Ballyshannon, Co Donegal, Ireland) DYER (Belfast and Ballymacarrett) SLEVIN and TIMONEY (Co Fermanagh) BARNETT (Ballagh, Co Tyrone and Strangford, Co Down)

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