Help to decipher Dutch marriage record from 1743

[Richard in Perth]

Hi there, I haven't posted for a while. I was having a look at what new records are available on FamilySearch and came across this marriage, which could be my 5th great grandparents. I was hoping that someone on here might be able to help me decipher it! It is from the Nederlands Hervormde Kerk (Dutch Reformed Church) of Arnhem, Gelderland, Netherlands. I have got some way with the help of Google Translate but there are a few abbreviations etc that I haven't worked out as yet. This is what I've got so far:


"1743, Den 16 Maart" [16 March 1743] - presumably this is the date of the first banns reading?

"jjj" (struck through) - does this represent the three banns readings?

"cop: h: l 2 April 1743" - presumably this is the date of the marriage ceremony? Not sure what the "cop h l" means though. All the records on the page have it.

"Joost Platel, F. M. Soldaat in ?? Regimt van der ?? Coll: van Rinschot(?)" - soldier in which regiment? What does the F. M. stand for?

"en Janne Cathrina Alberts, F. D. wonende alheir" - what does the F. D. stand for? ("wonende alheir" means living here).

"Getuigen" - witnesses

"des Bruidegom dat de ouders overleden ijn. Jan de Roos" - first part translates as "the Bridegroom that the parents are dead" Presumably Jan de Roos is a non-related witness?

"des Bruide vader Martinus Alberts" - "the Bride's father Martinus Alberts".


Any help anyone can offer would be appreciated!

Richard

[ozgirl]

I have Dutch ancestors so have read a lot of these so hopefully can help you. "jjj" is "111" or 3 - not seen this one before, might refer to the banns. Also the other bit cop:h:l 2 Apr 1743, I wonder if that would have been when details were copied somewhere.

(Joost Platel, j.m. (jonge man) soldaat in't regiment van der Heer Coll van Kinschott)

Joost Platel, bachelor, soldier in the regiment of Mr Coll of Kinschott

(en Janne Cathrina Alberts, j.d. (jonge dame) wonende alhier)

and Janne Cathrina Alberts spinster living here.

(Getuigen - des Bruidegoms, dat de ouders overleden syn, Jan de Rooij; des Bruide vader Martinus Alberts)

Witnesses - for the bridegroom, since his parents are dead, Jan de Rooij; for the Bride, her father Martinus Alberts

I'll try to have a look at the entry to see if I can work out the bits I'm not sure about.

[ozgirl]

Managed to find the entry, and looking at the other pages, have worked out that the 111 does signify the reading of the banns. On the 16 March the bridegroom (presumably) notified the authorities of intention to wed. The three banns were read and the couple then married on 2 April. The abbreviation cop h.l. I think is from a Latin phrase copulatio .... meaning to marry. On other pages in the book (with a different handwriting) the word used is Getrouwt - married.

[ozgirl]

Der Heer Coll van Kinschott is the Lord Colonel of Kinschot, or Roeland van Kinschot who was the commander of the Regiment of Kinschot from 1733.

[Richard in Perth]

Hi Ozgirl

Thank you very much for your help, that is much appreciated! I wonder if there would be any records from his regiment available? Probably unlikely given the early date!

I am fairly sure that this marriage is the same couple (my 5th great grandparents), who had their son (Jacobus) baptised at Maastricht in 1752. However, his baptism was at the Catholic church, whereas this marriage was in a Protestant (Dutch Reformed) church so if it is them then they changed denomination for some reason shortly after the marriage. Would this be normal at that time? Also, Joost Platel is entered as "Josephi Platel" on the baptism record (possibly this is a Latinisation of Joost?).

At her death in 1809 Janne Cathrina Alberts is entered as "Anne Catherine Alberts" (could Janne be a diminutive for Anne, or possibly again was this a Catholic thing?). Her father's name given as Martin Alberts on her death record, which ties in with the marriage entry above and is what makes me fairly sure I have got the right marriage. The death record says she was born at Breda, so they evidently moved around a bit - from Breda to Arnhem then Maastricht. Presumably this would be the norm in army life?

Anyway, I'm excited to have possibly broken through a major brick wall - we knew about Jacobus Platell 25 years ago, but it's only since these new Dutch records went online recently that we have got back another generation! Thanks once again for your invaluable help!

Regards
Richard

[kylejustin]

Jacob tends to be equivalent to james. Possible i suppose to mix up joseph and jacob in latin, based off accents? Not familiar with dutch accents.

quite easy to confuse anna/johanna/janne. My german ancestor's routinely flit between johanna and anna. Don't forget a "J" in dutch/german is pronounced as a "Y", yan, yohann. So janne would be yanna? Yan? Could also be a regional pet name? "jan" and "janne" in brittany, france is the standard instead of "jean" and "jeanne".

it sounds like you have the right marriage.

[Richard in Perth]

Hi kylejustin

Sorry for the confusion - it is Joost who becomes Josephi in the RC record, not Jacobus! I found on https://www.behindthename.com/name/joost that Joost is sometimes used as a diminutive of Jozef, so it does seem possible. I know that RC registers tend to use latinised versions of first names - he is "Josephus" on his burial record! You are right about Janne/Anne: I just noticed on another of their children's death records her name is entered as Joanna, so she did seem to use the two names interchangeably!

The main thing troubling me is why did they switch religions so suddenly? From Dutch Reformed Church at their marriage in 1743 to Catholic for their children's baptisms from 1752 onwards. Incidentally, their son Jacobus switched religions again when he migrated to Germany - he married in a Lutheran Church! Maybe they just picked a church of convenience?

Cheers
Richard

[ozgirl]

Maastricht is in Limburg, the most south-eastern of Dutch Provinces. It was fought over between the French and Dutch many times, and was occupied by the French on occasions. Even today the predominant religion in Limburg is Catholicism, at 67%. It could be that it was as you say a church of convenience. In my research of my Dutch line I have also come across families who at times used the Catholic church but at other times Lutheran or Dutch reformed. They didn't seem too bothered about which church as long as it was a church!

[kylejustin]

I know in germany, sometimes people used the church of their employer, whatever that denomination....could that be the case here?

my own family were staunch old lutherans, emmigrated because the king of prussia was trying to reform the church. 7 children in germany, only two baptisms found....in the catholic church. The researcher stated the likely reason was because the employment may have stipulated they attend catholic services.

i've also heard of people using another denominational church when theirs is being built or repaired.

[Richard in Perth]

I've just found an online tree containing Josephus Platel ( https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/s...1079802157.php ) and the compiler of this tree has also taken the Arnhem marriage to be the correct one. Interestingly, this tree has Joseph's baptism, in Breda. The OpenArchives link has this as a source:

City archive Breda in Breda (Netherlands), Church records baptisms
Collectie DTB Breda, Bron: boek, Part: 9, Period: 1701-1757, Breda, archive CB, inventory number 9, October 17, 1716, Dopen rk Brugstraat 1701-1757, folio 140

Am I correct in assuming that "Dopen rk Brugstraat" means Baptisms, Roman Catholic church in Brugstraat? If so, maybe he was always Catholic but Janne was Protestant, which might explain why they didn't marry in the RC church? Anyway it seems to have put paid to the family legend that the Platells were Huguenots, fleeing France in the late 17th Century, as if that were the case then why would they have fled persecution as Protestants only to convert to Catholicism anyway a few years later!

Incidentally, the surname is spelt "Platijn" rather than Platel - is that some ancient local dialect or spelling variant? Or has the researcher got it wrong and it's a different surname altogether! I've attached an image of the baptism entry below.

Joseph Platel - baptism 1716.jpg

[ozgirl]

I've just found an online tree containing Josephus Platel ( https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/s...1079802157.php ) and the compiler of this tree has also taken the Arnhem marriage to be the correct one. Interestingly, this tree has Joseph's baptism, in Breda. The OpenArchives link has this as a source:

City archive Breda in Breda (Netherlands), Church records baptisms
Collectie DTB Breda, Bron: boek, Part: 9, Period: 1701-1757, Breda, archive CB, inventory number 9, October 17, 1716, Dopen rk Brugstraat 1701-1757, folio 140

Am I correct in assuming that "Dopen rk Brugstraat" means Baptisms, Roman Catholic church in Brugstraat?

Joseph Platel - baptism 1716.jpg

Yes that is correct. I had a look for some more of the baptisms - Antonetta in 1702 is also Plattijn, mother Lysbeth Jansen van Lommel; Godefridus in 1719 is Platel, mother Elisabeth van Lommel; and Arnoldus in 1722 is Pratel (probably mistranscription) mother Elisabeth van Lommel. So it does look that some time between 1716 and 1722 Plattijn was changed to Platel.

The tree you referred to also has a daughter Joanna, baptised in Bergen op Zoom in 1704. The father's name seems to be correct, but I'm not so sure about the mother's - it looks to me like Elisabeth Jacobs.

baptism Joanna Platel.png

[Richard in Perth]

Thanks again Ozgirl. I have determined that Platijn is the Dutch equivalent of the French Platine, which means a small plaque or plate. This is similar to the meaning of the French surname Platel, so I suppose there is a connection there!

cheers,
Richard

[JPB77]

Hi Richard,

I know it's an old posting, but I just wanted to let you know that the Platel family tree on genealogieonline is missing a child of Joost/Josephus Platel.
In the index of the military baptism register of the catholic parish of Venlo:
11.04.1745 Antonius. parents: Josephus Platel & Maria Catharina Alberts. godparents: Joannes de Roij, Maria Lagoije

Joost/Josephus served in infantery regiment 673c [here] when he married (his regiment was formally in Grave, Brabant) and that regiment was merged into 672e [here]. Whether he joined the latter regiment is unknown; it did not visit Maastricht, where Joost/Josephus took up residence. The regiments regularly moved between garrison cities and fortresses in the 18th century. If you open the links you'll see under "garnizoen" the list of cities and garrison periods for the respective regiments.

kind regards,
Peter

[GallowayLass]

JPB77 Welcome to FTF. That’s a very helpful 1st post.

[Darksecretz]

I've just dropped Richard a PM, he hasn't been onsite in a while.