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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Another message and he says it was either Ancestry or FMP where the baptisms were. [and if they were they aint now!] not unless we are looking under the wrong names!

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

    Well whilst not finding your Mgt, I have learnt a lot about FWKs. There was a great uprising in Notts against rates of pay at the time of mechanisatation. This was between 1811-1816. However troubles also in Glasgow at the time + influx of Irish workers. So who knows what John did.

    I looked at Mgt Kennedy with f Duncan m a McLellan. The info is fuller on Ancestry than SP. Looked at marriages of Mgt Kennedy's in Renfrew and Lanarkshire 1810-1820 x 3 churches. There are 20 in total. Non Osborn. Only one with given name for the children ie William Brock but can't see in 1841 to eliminate.

    I note one of William Osborn's grandchildren was named Joseph Kennedy.

    I do think the 1807 marriage is that of the John and Mgt who settled in Ayr with Mgt dying in 1861. I have seen the marriage details. They were Residenters of Ayr and John was a Weaver.
    Vera
    Thanks Vera, yes FWK was very very interesting, I have an article in my Blog on this site about Frameworknitters and one also on Needlemaking I thoroughly enjoyed researching those occupations and learnt so much. I have also been to the Frameworknitters museum and that is fascinating.
    I also have seen varying records to suggest that John/Margaret McClelland 'are not the droids we are looking for' [Star wars inference, sorry]
    John is my 4xgrt grandads brother, so whilst not a direct line I do like to chase down all the siblings and their offspring up to 1939 if possible. You never know what is going to get thrown up and I may be kind of lucky in getting to see a photo or two of them.
    I had also noticed the Kennedy name cropping up again, [as well as Hunter] IME it seems likely to me that Kennedy would be a surname from the maternal side.
    I'm also pretty sure that the marriage entry states that he was a weaver too. Like you, I'm not at all sure as to where/how/when/if he [John] moved around to and from Scotland.

    Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
    Is it possible margaret was, in fact, irish? Not scottish?
    It is possible that she did come from Ireland. Though I haven't seen anything aside from the 1841 census [which is wrong]
    The name of Kennedy instantly made me think of Ireland, but I don't know quite where that name fits in, I'm only presuming that it is in fact a MN.

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  • kylejustin
    replied
    Is it possible margaret was, in fact, irish? Not scottish?

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  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post

    I know what you mean, it's a pain in the neck trying to look for records.
    Unfortunately no, I don't have any marriage certs for them I don't think. I do have one for Hunters daughter Louise/a as she marries one of my Chadbournes.
    I have messaged the person again to ask about specifics re the baptism dates, but I'm not holding out much luck that he'll get back to me asap as he isn't very well.

    I really am not sure what to think now. I will keep plodding on with it and trying to make some headway.
    That marriage caught my eye as the mothers MN is Mclellan, I'm probably barking totally up the wrong tree!
    Well whilst not finding your Mgt, I have learnt a lot about FWKs. There was a great uprising in Notts against rates of pay at the time of mechanisatation. This was between 1811-1816. However troubles also in Glasgow at the time + influx of Irish workers. So who knows what John did.

    I looked at Mgt Kennedy with f Duncan m a McLellan. The info is fuller on Ancestry than SP. Looked at marriages of Mgt Kennedy's in Renfrew and Lanarkshire 1810-1820 x 3 churches. There are 20 in total. Non Osborn. Only one with given name for the children ie William Brock but can't see in 1841 to eliminate.

    I note one of William Osborn's grandchildren was named Joseph Kennedy.

    I do think the 1807 marriage is that of the John and Mgt who settled in Ayr with Mgt dying in 1861. I have seen the marriage details. They were Residenters of Ayr and John was a Weaver.



    Vera

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
    Well it could be but there are a lot of variables on SP that could be your Mgt. I have Looked for Kennedy. Plenty at the RC church. I will check out SP. My grandma was born in Paisley, Renfrew then briefly moved to Coatbridge, Lanark.

    Those boys are not helping us with clues. I suspect Hunter is a second name. No obvious naming pattern with their children. Do you have any mc records for them?

    I had been working on the theory Mgt married another in Scotland came to Notts, husband died. She then married John Osborn . Only trouble with that is the timing of Thomas b Peebles and Luke b Notts.

    Latest thinking there is a family connection. John goes to Scotland to marry single or widow Mgt. (The Jane Osborn I stumbled upon married her cousin in Scotland, Wm McDonald who lived in Lincs at the time of m.)

    Or there is the original theory as others have recorded John goes to Scotland for work, meets and marries Mgt. They have x 3 children then leave for Notts after Thos' birth. I can't remember what I have Looked at 're a John Osborn/Mgt marriage but think the only one on SP is the Osborn/McClelland Ayr m.

    Vera
    I know what you mean, it's a pain in the neck trying to look for records.
    Unfortunately no, I don't have any marriage certs for them I don't think. I do have one for Hunters daughter Louise/a as she marries one of my Chadbournes.
    I have messaged the person again to ask about specifics re the baptism dates, but I'm not holding out much luck that he'll get back to me asap as he isn't very well.

    I really am not sure what to think now. I will keep plodding on with it and trying to make some headway.
    That marriage caught my eye as the mothers MN is Mclellan, I'm probably barking totally up the wrong tree!

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  • vera2013
    replied
    Well it could be but there are a lot of variables on SP that could be your Mgt. I have Looked for Kennedy. Plenty at the RC church. I will check out SP. My grandma was born in Paisley, Renfrew then briefly moved to Coatbridge, Lanark.

    Those boys are not helping us with clues. I suspect Hunter is a second name. No obvious naming pattern with their children. Do you have any mc records for them?

    I had been working on the theory Mgt married another in Scotland came to Notts, husband died. She then married John Osborn . Only trouble with that is the timing of Thomas b Peebles and Luke b Notts.

    Latest thinking there is a family connection. John goes to Scotland to marry single or widow Mgt. (The Jane Osborn I stumbled upon married her cousin in Scotland, Wm McDonald who lived in Lincs at the time of m.)

    Or there is the original theory as others have recorded John goes to Scotland for work, meets and marries Mgt. They have x 3 children then leave for Notts after Thos' birth. I can't remember what I have Looked at 're a John Osborn/Mgt marriage but think the only one on SP is the Osborn/McClelland Ayr m.

    Vera


    Vera

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Look what I have found!

    Name: Margaret Kennedy
    Gender: Female
    Birth Date: 11 Jul 1785
    Baptism Date: 17 Jul 1785
    Baptism Place: Low Church, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
    Father: Duncan Kennedy
    Mother: Mary Mclellan


    https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bi...=successSource

    or am I trying to make things fit?

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
    The risky but was just my Avast doing its job I thought. Looked quickly at John's brothers. Didn't see any of them feeling the need to to go to Scotland for work. My feeling is Margaret has some family connection with the Osbornes.

    Vera
    Well, I got a reply from the chap who I messaged and it's a friends tree and he has no connection to it aside from the research that he did on behalf of said friend. I quickly messaged him back and asked him a few questions. He did say though that I could use any info that was there. I just wish that this other person would get back to me via that website that we found..

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  • vera2013
    replied
    The risky but was just my Avast doing its job I thought. Looked quickly at John's brothers. Didn't see any of them feeling the need to to go to Scotland for work. My feeling is Margaret has some family connection with the Osbornes.

    Vera

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
    Did you ever see the site giving details of Osborn family. Will not give further info on title as it comes up as risky. However well researched starting with a grandmother back to 5th g/grandfather with John and Mgt (still no maiden name) and the boys with the exception of Thomas b Peebles.

    The researcher felt that John had married Margaret in Scotland, John having possibly moved to Glasgow for work but with housing conditions being so poor and the onset of the Typhus epidemic in 1817 moved back to Nottingham.

    They also recorded that John Osborn had re-married after Mgt's death to an Ann and was living in Sutton in Ashfield in 1861.

    Very interesting read

    Vera
    Yes I did, and have emailed them, but so far no response. I also showed my newfound cousin the site too, so was doubly happy. It is really great for him [cousin] as he now has a whole new side of the family to look at.

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  • vera2013
    replied
    Did you ever see the site giving details of Osborn family. Will not give further info on title as it comes up as risky. However well researched starting with a grandmother back to 5th g/grandfather with John and Mgt (still no maiden name) and the boys with the exception of Thomas b Peebles.

    The researcher felt that John had married Margaret in Scotland, John having possibly moved to Glasgow for work but with housing conditions being so poor and the onset of the Typhus epidemic in 1817 moved back to Nottingham.

    They also recorded that John Osborn had re-married after Mgt's death to an Ann and was living in Sutton in Ashfield in 1861.

    Very interesting read

    Vera

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

    Yes the dates are Baps so births could be much earlier and if they were non com think that baps could be when the Preacher next comes to the area. However I have checked all names against Church of Scotland, RC and Other Churches. Maybe you could ask the poster of those definite baps the source of his/her info?

    I favoured William for further scrutiny especially as he named his first born son George whilst his brother's favoured John. However the name George could have come from his wife's family.

    Kennedy also a good possibility for Mgt. If I look at my own family all brothers and sisters middle name is that of my mother. Trouble is there are a lot of Mgt's in Scotland.

    Will go away and ponder

    PS for GL, the McDonald whose occupation was Draper on mc was b in Scotland but remained in England where he was recorded as a Travelling Draper. He later became a Smack Owner and then Schoolteacher so maybe bigging up or my poor eyesight
    Vera
    Thanks Vera, I will contact the persons tree and have also been looking at the children's children.

    Ahh William, he had a few different jobs, didn't he? though on his death cert he is listed as a 'Draper' his grandson John was present at the death.

    I'm sure I read somewhere that John/George could be one and the same name in Scotland? or he could have been a John George? no idea really.

    Appreciate all of the help, I'll keep chipping away at the children/childrens children.. it might throw something up and I'll also message that person with the dates.


    ETA: have now fired off a message to the person concerned.
    Last edited by Darksecretz; 25-11-20, 10:16.

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  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by Darksecretz View Post

    Thank you Vera, I have been scouring the net looking... and finding zilch. could the dates be baptisms? or am I barking at the wrong tree?
    Even if they had different surnames you still would think that they could be found with say just Hunter...

    I do appreciate you looking so am kind of in limbo now... again with where to look next, I haven't even found any wills.

    I have been looking at William b.1813 Glasgow he marries and has children, his occupation is Draper, something else. [Provision dealer?] and Methodist preacher so could they have been non conformists? I'm not sure where to look for those records though.
    Yes the dates are Baps so births could be much earlier and if they were non com think that baps could be when the Preacher next comes to the area. However I have checked all names against Church of Scotland, RC and Other Churches. Maybe you could ask the poster of those definite baps the source of his/her info?

    I favoured William for further scrutiny especially as he named his first born son George whilst his brother's favoured John. However the name George could have come from his wife's family.

    Kennedy also a good possibility for Mgt. If I look at my own family all brothers and sisters middle name is that of my mother. Trouble is there are a lot of Mgt's in Scotland.

    Will go away and ponder

    PS for GL, the McDonald whose occupation was Draper on mc was b in Scotland but remained in England where he was recorded as a Travelling Draper. He later became a Smack Owner and then Schoolteacher so maybe bigging up or my poor eyesight

    Vera

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by Lin Fisher View Post
    I'd had a look at William as well but even though I saw he was a Methodist preacher never thought of non conformist records.

    There are more and more coming on line for England but not sure about Scotland.

    I would have thought Hunter would have been easy to find but he's very elusive.
    yes he is isn't he? I don't have any clue where he could be found.

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  • Lin Fisher
    replied
    I'd had a look at William as well but even though I saw he was a Methodist preacher never thought of non conformist records.

    There are more and more coming on line for England but not sure about Scotland.

    I would have thought Hunter would have been easy to find but he's very elusive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

    Not finding William or Hunter using those dates and places of birth using Osborn, just first name, throwing a Margaret in and looking at OPR Church of Scotland, RC and other churches.

    Saw X 4 Thomas in Peebles

    Thomas Douglas Grieve f James m Mgt Blakie 18/06/1815
    Thomas Jamieson f George m Mgt Murray 25/95/1817
    Thomas Scott f Alexander m Mgt Dickson 16/011820
    Thomas Veitch f Adam m Mgt Henderson 11/10/1819

    Only Thomas Douglas Grieve a possible but tight for the Osborn children's dob EDIT not him can see him living, lying death Peebles

    Names not turning up as possibles for William and Hunter in Glasgow

    ​​​​​​Vera
    Thank you Vera, I have been scouring the net looking... and finding zilch. could the dates be baptisms? or am I barking at the wrong tree?
    Even if they had different surnames you still would think that they could be found with say just Hunter...

    I do appreciate you looking so am kind of in limbo now... again with where to look next, I haven't even found any wills.

    I have been looking at William b.1813 Glasgow he marries and has children, his occupation is Draper, something else. [Provision dealer?] and Methodist preacher so could they have been non conformists? I'm not sure where to look for those records though.

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

    Will check those births out on SP

    I suspect the recording of the 1807 Ayr marriage is from Ancestry's cross referencing

    I note also one tree has not recorded Margaret's mn but recorded she was b in the Orkneys

    Vera
    Not finding William or Hunter using those dates and places of birth using Osborn, just first name, throwing a Margaret in and looking at OPR Church of Scotland, RC and other churches.

    Saw X 4 Thomas in Peebles

    Thomas Douglas Grieve f James m Mgt Blakie 18/06/1815
    Thomas Jamieson f George m Mgt Murray 25/95/1817
    Thomas Scott f Alexander m Mgt Dickson 16/011820
    Thomas Veitch f Adam m Mgt Henderson 11/10/1819

    Only Thomas Douglas Grieve a possible but tight for the Osborn children's dob EDIT not him can see him living, lying death Peebles

    Names not turning up as possibles for William and Hunter in Glasgow

    ​​​​​​Vera

    Leave a comment:


  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post

    This husband with the occupation of draper - does he keep popping up in different parts of the country? Reason I ask is; in Scotland we had numerous men described in censuses as draper when they really ought to have been described as Scotch draper. The latter was a travelling salesman selling household linens and ready made clothing mostly to the lower classes. A proper draper was static with a either a shop or permanent market stall.
    I have a few Scotch drapers in my family living both sides of the border and in one or two cases, even Scotch draper was talking themselves up. They were hawkers. LOL
    I haven't even seen that one yet! I have been tracking John and seeing where he eventually ends up. I think I have found him and his death in 1866.

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  • GallowayLass
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
    Stumbled on a Scottish m yesterday cousins Osborne/McDonald. Husband occ Draper from Lincoln. Maiden name of brides mother Kennedy. Couple subsequently living Lincoln. Not sure there is anything in that.

    Vera
    This husband with the occupation of draper - does he keep popping up in different parts of the country? Reason I ask is; in Scotland we had numerous men described in censuses as draper when they really ought to have been described as Scotch draper. The latter was a travelling salesman selling household linens and ready made clothing mostly to the lower classes. A proper draper was static with a either a shop or permanent market stall.
    I have a few Scotch drapers in my family living both sides of the border and in one or two cases, even Scotch draper was talking themselves up. They were hawkers. LOL

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  • Darksecretz
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

    Will check those births out on SP

    I suspect the recording of the 1807 Ayr marriage is from Ancestry's cross referencing

    I note also one tree has not recorded Margaret's mn but recorded she was b in the Orkneys

    Vera
    yes I noticed that too... if they were so sure that it was McClelland they why not put it in?
    thank you Vera I really can't get to grips with how that works.

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