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Where do I start researching my Great Grandfather

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  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    The only thing that you maybe lucky on is searching through all the ships passenger lists, the later ones say who they are visiting. I kind of feel that his brothers maybe in USA, certainly a lot from similar area in New York.

    I did have a wander round, but need a more methodical approach. Some say who they are visiting. so maybe one of them visited Manchester, I didn't find an obvious one of Simon Marks visiting NY.

    And search obits etc in NY to see if any mention brother in England.

    Leave a comment:


  • mmarksx19
    replied
    As it has been quite some time, I thought I would update my thread.
    Despite my best efforts, I have been unable to find any further information on my Great Grandfather or his brothers.
    Thanks to all your help here, I did find his fathers name from the headstone but nothing else.

    I guess he wasn't naturalized in the UK and his name/date of birth/place of birth alter across records. If I know his original name - before he came to the UK then I could search further but I haven't found any way of gleaning this information.

    Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
    Some information from my contact who found her Jewish ancestor later in life, using genetic genealogy:
    Jews had two given names traditionally. Neither is considered a "middle" name and they can be in any order, neither is more primary than the other.
    The two names of the father would be his two given names.

    first names of living relatives were not given to children?...unless someone that died with the name was shared by a living person too, which is not that unusual. The norm is you name after the last important relative that died. Could be an Uncle, grandfather or anyone else important to the family.

    Simon's full headstone translation:

    "[abbreviation] Here is buried/ Mr. Shimon Yisrael son of Mr. Moshe Michoel/ passed away 10 Adar 5707/ [abbreviation] May his soul be bound in the bond of life."

    I like the benediction.
    that is very interesting, i have been hooked into looking at various Marks people, and they do seem to be changing names, so that makes sense now.

    Leave a comment:


  • PhotoFamily
    replied
    Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
    ...Y-DNA testing might give you a surname....
    Interesting info about Y-DNA from the same friend:
    =============================
    What about Y-DNA with Jewish ancestors? I remember something about it not being as useful with Jewish genealogy, but I never understood why. I am not 100%, but I suspect it is because they all share the same few. With the endogamy going back for 1000's of years, there are likely very few Y-DNA differences. Additionally, per scripture, Jews come from the 12 tribes. Those 12 men were all from the same man. Of course there have been conversions over the years, but one would thin the Y-DNA would be the same for most. "Monoallelic genetic markers, Y-chromosomal DNA and mitochondrial DNA, have proven their usefulness in understanding the patrilineal and matrilineal origins of Jewish Diaspora groups. Y-DNA analysis showed that most Diaspora Jews are descended from a smaller group of Middle Eastern men. Seven Y chromosome major branches (E3b, G, J1, J2, Q, R1a1, and R1b) that are prevalent among Ashkenazi Jews. Four of these (E3b, G, J1, J2, and Q) were part of the ancestral gene pool from the Middle East, whereas R1b and certain R1a sub-lineages are from Europe and may have incorporated into the Ashkenazi Jewish population. The presence of European Y-chromosomal lineages is the major difference between Ashkenazi Jews, Middle Eastern and Sephardic Jews.

    The most common Ashkenazi Jewish Y chromosomal haplogroups are R1a1 and R1b. R1a1 is very common among Eastern European populations, Russians, Ukrainians, and Sorbs (Slavic speakers in Germany), as well as among certain Central Asian groups. However, it should be noted that a Middle Eastern origin for some R1a1 lineages cannot be ruled out. R1b is the most common Y-chromosome branch of Atlantic Europe. Its occurrence among Ashkenazi Jews may be an indicator of the mixture prior to the Ashkenazi Jewish migration to Eastern Europe or at later time points in certain locales.

    Four mitochondrial haplogroups were found to account for >40 % of the total among Ashkenazi Jews, providing evidence for four founder females. These haplogroups form the so-called “star phylogenies”. Some of these founders originated in the Middle East. This origin is akin to the patrilineal mode of origins and the founder numbers and population frequencies vary greatly in the Jewish Diaspora populations."
    =============================

    So, the bad news would be that Y-DNA might not be very good for you when looking for a unique ancestral line. The good news might be that it wouldn't take very many men testing to give you a match, and probably a surname.

    The ftDNA project would be able to give more complete info and how it would apply in your case.

    Leave a comment:


  • PhotoFamily
    replied
    Some information from my contact who found her Jewish ancestor later in life, using genetic genealogy:
    Jews had two given names traditionally. Neither is considered a "middle" name and they can be in any order, neither is more primary than the other.
    The two names of the father would be his two given names.

    first names of living relatives were not given to children?...unless someone that died with the name was shared by a living person too, which is not that unusual. The norm is you name after the last important relative that died. Could be an Uncle, grandfather or anyone else important to the family.

    Simon's full headstone translation:

    "[abbreviation] Here is buried/ Mr. Shimon Yisrael son of Mr. Moshe Michoel/ passed away 10 Adar 5707/ [abbreviation] May his soul be bound in the bond of life."

    I like the benediction.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    there is a Marks that is the sexton at the Leeds synagogue, can't remember his first name, but saw his naturalisation record.

    Leave a comment:


  • PhotoFamily
    replied
    "The Jews kept meticulous records, were very reluctant to part with them, and were not requested to deposit them by the Registrar General in the mid-19th century, thus they remain with the Jewish community. They may be at synagogues, Jewish institutions, or Jewish cemeteries and burial societies. Some have been deposited into the care of local or county archives and much has been microfilmed, to be found under FamilySearch Catalog - COUNTRY - (COUNTY) - (TOWN) - JEWISH RECORDS,"
    from the same wiki page

    Again, contacting the Jewish gen society of Leeds is important to finding local synagogue records.

    Leave a comment:


  • PhotoFamily
    replied
    Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
    This could be it - says parent is David and Leah
    Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.


    Naturalisation says Barnet & Leah.

    Makes me wonder if they know the name of their father, maybe they never actually knew in those days? do names change due to translation?
    Yes. Translation/anglicization/desire to blend in. Familysearch has some interesting pages on the subjects of Jews in Britain and name changes:
    https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...Jewish_Records

    https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en...s#Jewish_Names

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    This could be it - says parent is David and Leah
    Discover your family history. Explore the world’s largest collection of free family trees, genealogy records and resources.


    Naturalisation says Barnet & Leah.

    Makes me wonder if they know the name of their father, maybe they never actually knew in those days? do names change due to translation?

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    could be this headstone, no help there in the english words

    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...077/wolf-marks

    another here ?
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 08-12-20, 18:58.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    I think this is them in 1920
    https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...e&pId=87344267

    there is a death in 1926 NB they have changed from Markson to Marks if it is them.

    I don't know how US docs work this is a likely one:
    Name: Wolf Marks
    Age: 62
    Birth Year: abt 1864
    Death Date: 7 Aug 1926
    Death Place: Kings, New York, USA
    Certificate Number: 16830
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 08-12-20, 18:15.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
    So, where did he die, and when? There's a photo of his headstone?

    US DCs in that era will probably have blanks for POB, parents' names and their POBs.
    Have not looked hard for his death yet, found wide in 1930 widowed. Guess if I could find that and an obit - might then discount family. will look

    Leave a comment:


  • Katarzyna
    replied
    Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
    I do wonder if that naturalisation needs more research before discounting? Or does the date in manchester rule out your simon?

    just because he had six children at time of naturalisation, doesn't mean they all survived to adulthood. It would be rather unusual if henry and sarah were the only children born to simon and amelia.
    Because that Simon Marks was born c1858 and he is with his wife and children on the 1901 and 1911 censuses in Manchester:
    1901 census:

    Leave a comment:


  • PhotoFamily
    replied
    Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post

    He goes to the US and dies before 1930, so not a brother on the headstone (but he did have more!)

    But you can see he was married before his naturalisation.
    So, where did he die, and when? There's a photo of his headstone?

    US DCs in that era will probably have blanks for POB, parents' names and their POBs.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Forgot to say I found him in 1881 living with his cousin and brother

    Name: Wulf Markson
    Age: 16
    Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
    Relationship to Head: Cousin
    Gender: Male
    Where born: Marienburg, Poland
    Civil Parish: Leeds
    County/Island: Yorkshire
    Country: England
    Street Address: 22 Lower Templar St
    Occupation: Tailor
    Registration District: Leeds
    Sub registration district: North Leeds
    ED, institution, or vessel: 14
    Piece: 4517
    Folio: 17
    Page Number: 18

    Name Age
    Jacob Friez 26
    Rosa Friez 24
    Barnet Hyman Friez 7
    Esther Friez 4
    Kate Friez 5
    Simon Friez 1
    Louis Markson 19
    Wulf Markson 16

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    I did follow up Wolf Markson a bit, and re marriage I can see he got married

    Name: Wolf Markson
    Registration Year: 1890
    Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
    Registration District: Leeds
    Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
    Volume: 9b
    Page: 912

    and his naturalisation is:

    ​​​​​​Name: Woolf Markson
    Gender: Male
    Relationship: Self (Head)
    Record Type: Certificate
    Birth Date: abt 1868
    Birth Place: Mariampole, Poland
    Residence Year: 1897
    Residence Place: Leeds, Yorkshire, England
    Father: Barnet Markson
    Mother: Leah Markson
    Child: Isaac Myer Markson
    Fanny Markson
    Barnet Markson
    David Max Markson

    He goes to the US and dies before 1930, so not a brother on the headstone (but he did have more!)

    But you can see he was married before his naturalisation.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    You need to look at all other names (witnesses etc) on every certificates that you have. So not just the immediate family, every occasion. if the family were close you may find a brother popping up as a witness at another wedding.

    They could have attended the same church if they were in Leeds, and shared family occasions.

    It is amazing how you can stumble across other family members, things like looking up and down the road on a census.

    I don't have access to MyHeritage, so not sure what records they have on there, are your library offering free access to Ancestry at home at the moment. many are? It maybe worth having a look on there at the links to the polish records I posted yesterday, I have not looked at the geography of Poland, is Mariampole a possible, it seems to be a part of Poland that was Russia, more research maybe needed.

    I would definitely look at others with same/similar surname born Russia/Poland nearby you might get lucky.
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 08-12-20, 09:57.

    Leave a comment:


  • Katarzyna
    replied
    See post #117, Michael. Answer was no unfortunately.

    Leave a comment:


  • mmarksx19
    replied
    As requested, summary of what I have.

    1891 census - Simon Marks aged 20 living at 12 Lydia St, Leeds as a lodger states born in Poland
    1896 marriage certificate to Amelia Nathan - states father as Moses Marks
    1901 census - Simeon Marks living with the Nathans aged 31 states Russian subject
    1911 census - Simon Marks living with the Nathans aged 43 with his 2 children - Henry and Sarah Marks states Russia Marinpole Russian resident
    1947 memorial headstone (died 2nd March 1947) - Simon Marks aged 78 states he had brothers and the Hebrew gives his name as Shimon Yisrael son of Moshe Michael

    If his father was indeed Moshe (or Moses) Michael Marks - then I share my name with my Great, Great Grandfather (my name is Michael Marks) which is quite something!

    I have quite a bit of the Nathan tree but nothing references Simon.

    I don't have naturalization papers or birth certificate.

    The name and year of birth seem to alter on the census (Simeon and Simon year of birth varies from 1868-1871 although the headstone says he was 78 when he died in 1947.

    I would love to find where he was born, his parents and his brothers (which were my fathers uncles).

    I also believe that the family name may not have been Marks originally. If he was Russian, it may have been abbreviated or Anglicized in the UK.

    One thing that confuses me (actually lots of things but this may be the key) - if he has a UK marriage certificate so had a legal UK wedding (I have the certificate), would he not have had to have been Naturalised first?

    Michael

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    I hadn't realised that there was transcription of:

    All Poland, Jewish Records Indexing-Poland, Births, 1550-1993 Results on ancestry

    Leave a comment:

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