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    Where do I start researching my Great Grandfather

    Hi all,

    I'm relatively new to this but have (through MyHeritage and CRARG.ORG) managed to build a family tree and discover lots of my mothers side of the family who came to the UK from Poland.
    I now want to research my fathers side of the family but have hit a brick wall.

    His Grandfather on the 1901 census was living in Leeds and called Simeon Marks . He states his birth place as Russia. He gives his age as 31.
    In the 1911 census he gives his age as 43 and states his place of birth as Russia Marinpole (which I believe no longer exists as the only reference I can find to Marinpole is in Latvia) - I know the Russian Empire all changed over the last 2 centuries.

    So I assume he was born between 1867 and 1871.

    I can find a Simon (not Simeon) Marks in living Leeds on the 1891 census who states his age as 20 but not sure if it is the same person.

    Being an immigrant, his surname may not have been Marks originally and his first name may not have been Simeon - I assume they were both Anglicised versions of his Russian/Jewish name.

    So, I am not sure of his first name, surname, date of birth or his place of birth!!!!!!!

    Have I hit a dead end or are there any suggestions from experienced members? I don't have the funds to employ a researcher - especially without a guarantee that they will find something.

    I would really appreciate any help, guidance, advice and answers!

    Many thanks.

    Michael

    now edited by Carolyn to include new information from thread below:

    A quick summary of what is known about Simeon (I think?)

    1891
    12 Lydia Street, Leeds Lodging age 20 (b1871) lodging with the Labovitch family (all born in Russia and tailors) and Louis Kolmenson is also lodging

    1896
    43 Cannon Street, Leeds age 25 (b1871) marriage

    1901
    8 Sheepscar Place, Leeds age 31 (b1870) with Nathan family

    1911
    5 Glover Street, Leeds age 43 (b1868) with Nathan family

    1929
    5 Glover Street, Leeds (elec roll) with wife, son & wife

    1939
    117 Ordsall Lane, Salford age 77 (b1862), living with wife, daughter & husband

    1943 & 1947
    (deaths) 210 Brunswick Road, Chorlton on Medlock age 78 (b1869)

    No reg of electors available for Brunswick Street on line see post 12

    Naturalisation records after 1916 are not on Ancestry see posts number post 19-21

    Only town mentioned for PoB is Manupole, Russia

    Father is Moses Marks on marriage cert
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 24-10-20, 21:45.

    #2
    Hi Michael and welcome to the forum, I hope that someone here has some expertise in Russian genealogy.

    have you tried looking through the newspapers, maybe you will be lucky in finding something about his death?
    Carolyn
    Family Tree site

    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

    Comment


      #3
      on the 1891 census I do wonder if the enumerator should have ditto'd Russia from the line above and Poland referred to next line on the new household. His occupation as tailor ties up, but not exactly unique occupation. Like you say looking like it is him, possibly having recently arrived.
      Carolyn
      Family Tree site

      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
        on the 1891 census I do wonder if the enumerator should have ditto'd Russia from the line above and Poland referred to next line on the new household. His occupation as tailor ties up, but not exactly unique occupation. Like you say looking like it is him, possibly having recently arrived.
        Many thanks Carolyn.

        I did notice the Poland reference. I hope it is him at 20 - still doesn't take me any further! I would love to know his parents, siblings etc but for that I guess I would need the Russian/Latvian records and know his original name! A lot of the Jewish Eastern European/Russian immigrants in Leeds were tailors - a lot of them employed by Burtons.

        Michael

        Comment


          #5
          I have no idea what, if anything, what Ancestry WW can add, but you maybe lucky and have free access via your library at home due to Covid, In Bedfordshire it is still available
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


            #6
            Two quick thoughts -
            * He probably naturalized, and naturalization papers can be a rich source of information.
            * Jewish gravestones often provide very useful information, including the original name and the father's name, often in Hebrew, but there are plenty of people on the web who will translate for you if needed.

            I assisted someone in their London Jewish research - there are Jewish newspapers that carried that community's notices.

            If you post links to the records that you've found, perhaps we can assist finding additional records.

            Welcome to ftf!
            ------------------------------------------------------
            My Families
            London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

            Comment


              #7
              1911 census shows Simeon living as a SIL to head of household Rachel Nathan. Millie is the daughter of Rachel. Millie is short for Amelia.
              This is probably their marriage:

              Registration Year: 1896
              Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
              Registration District: Leeds
              Volume: 9b
              Page: 1051

              Jane Friedman
              Harris Landey
              Simon Marks
              Amelia Nathan

              The marriage cert will give you Simeon's father's name and occupation. Essential!!!!


              1901 census with Amelia b Leeds German Subject and Simeon as Macks Russian Subject
              https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/...try&h=27999924
              Last edited by Katarzyna; 16-10-20, 16:57.
              Kat
              https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

              Comment


                #8
                this is the 1891 that Michael is referring:

                Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
                Residence Place: Leeds, Yorkshire, England
                Registration District: Leeds
                Sub registration district: North Leeds
                ED, Institution or Vessel: 7
                Piece: 3688
                Folio: 80

                https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...64&pId=4981228

                He has 2 children in 1911 census Henry and Sarah, and his wife is german mother and Polish father I think I saw, with them in 1901 and 1911
                Last edited by cbcarolyn; 16-10-20, 22:31.
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                Comment


                  #9
                  Is this tree known to you, Michael......by the way, Welcome to the forum

                  http://franklinfamilytree.info/famil...klinFamilyTree
                  Jacky

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I think Amelia was known as Melba, in 1929 electoral roll on FMP they are in glover street, with Henry and his wife Sadie.

                    And can see on the tree that Tilly has posted
                    Carolyn
                    Family Tree site

                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Henry was his son - my grandfather and Sadie (actually born Sarah) was his wife.

                      I've subscribed to and used myheritage rather than ancestry, wonder if I should use both!

                      I think the big win would be to discover Simeons birth name and try to trace back to his parents.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by mmarksx19 View Post
                        Henry was his son - my grandfather and Sadie (actually born Sarah) was his wife.

                        I've subscribed to and used myheritage rather than ancestry, wonder if I should use both!

                        I think the big win would be to discover Simeons birth name and try to trace back to his parents.
                        What certificated information do you have? eg Henry -Marriage and birth certificates and for Simeon his marriage cert. You really need these in order to be sure you are following the correct path. PhotoFamily in post no#6 gave some good advice.
                        Kat
                        https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                          PhotoFamily in post no#6 gave some good advice.
                          I looked for naturalization on Ancestry, but didn't find Simeon Marks. In both 1901 and 1911 he is listed as a Russian national. Wonder if he ever naturalized?

                          Tried looking for DC for him or Amelia - but didn't find anything I can pinpoint as theirs.

                          So, tho born in Leeds, Amelia is listed as a German national? But she's on voter rolls later? Does that mean she naturalized, or was she a UK citizen by birth?

                          If you know when he/they died, it might assist with locating a gravestone. Still, UK DC's don't indicate burial location like US ones do.

                          Yes, please buy the marriage cert. Might have a bunch of clues - his father's name and occupation and informants.
                          ------------------------------------------------------
                          My Families
                          London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I seem to remember that there is an index of Jewish Marriage records?? for the ??UK?? London?? can't remember the details, does someone know?
                            ------------------------------------------------------
                            My Families
                            London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                            Comment


                              #15
                              this is the electoral roll in case it helps.

                              Sorry, yes I knew Henry was the son, he is on his own (with Sadie) by 1939 in Louis street, does that mean both parents died, or just that they were no longer living with parents?
                              1929 census.JPG

                              Not found much obvious, census and marriage only, not even deaths.

                              No naturalisation, that are supposed to be on Ancestry. There are a couple of Simeon Marks in London but not our Leeds man.

                              Did they stay in the Leeds area, do you know?

                              Does Marks translate into a different spelling?
                              Last edited by cbcarolyn; 16-10-20, 22:29.
                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Ancestry's only go to 1916. If he naturalized after that, Ancestry wouldn't have it.

                                Is that the Simon in question and his wife Melba on the electoral roll in 1929? Doesn't that mean they were citizens? Given she was born in Leeds, is she a UK citizen by birth, or did she naturalize? If she naturalized, was it with her husband (when he was still living) or as a widow - either way, it would be an interesting read.

                                Somebody with a grasp on TNA's catalog - are the naturalization records beyond 1916 available? Indexed?
                                ------------------------------------------------------
                                My Families
                                London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Looks like their daughter Sarah Marks married a Harry M. Segal in Dec.1927 Leeds.

                                  In 1939 this couple are living in Salford (Manchester) and with them are Simon Marks b. September 1862 (?) Tailor, retired and Amelia Marks b.16/10/1865 (?) - their birth years a little adrift but this looks like their deaths:

                                  Simon Marks bc.1869 died Mar.1947 Manchester
                                  Amelia Marks bc.1865 died Dec.1943 Manchester

                                  (I note that when a different person with same name died his probate was in name of Marcovitch so this may be the original surname of your Simon).

                                  Annette

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by annette.humphreys View Post

                                    In 1939 this couple are living in Salford (Manchester) and with them are Simon Marks b. September 1862 (?) Tailor, retired and Amelia Marks b.16/10/1865 (?) - their birth years a little adrift but this looks like their deaths:

                                    Simon Marks bc.1869 died Mar.1947 Manchester
                                    Amelia Marks bc.1865 died Dec.1943 Manchester

                                    (I note that when a different person with same name died his probate was in name of Marcovitch so this may be the original surname of your Simon).

                                    Annette
                                    Findagrave for Simon Marks, died 1948, buried Blackley Jewish Cemetery, Manchester
                                    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...23/simon-marks

                                    There's an Amelia Marks, but she died 1963
                                    https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...7/amelia-marks

                                    You can request photos of the gravestones simply by registering and making the request. Then cross your fingers that someone picks up the requests and fulfills them.

                                    Amelia is probably not yours (barring transcription error). Simon - hmm, so there's a Jewish tradition of laying the gravestone a year after the death. Wonder if that could have confused the DOD.


                                    And a probate? Wow - so add that to the documents to recover!
                                    ------------------------------------------------------
                                    My Families
                                    London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by PhotoFamily View Post
                                      Ancestry's only go to 1916. If he naturalized after that, Ancestry wouldn't have it.

                                      Is that the Simon in question and his wife Melba on the electoral roll in 1929? Doesn't that mean they were citizens? Given she was born in Leeds, is she a UK citizen by birth, or did she naturalize? If she naturalized, was it with her husband (when he was still living) or as a widow - either way, it would be an interesting read.

                                      Somebody with a grasp on TNA's catalog - are the naturalization records beyond 1916 available? Indexed?
                                      There is a search box on this page - tried Simeon but didn't get a hit
                                      https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...h-citizenship/

                                      Records are still free if you can find it.

                                      Originally posted by annette.humphreys View Post
                                      Looks like their daughter Sarah Marks married a Harry M. Segal in Dec.1927 Leeds.

                                      In 1939 this couple are living in Salford (Manchester) and with them are Simon Marks b. September 1862 (?) Tailor, retired and Amelia Marks b.16/10/1865 (?) - their birth years a little adrift but this looks like their deaths:

                                      Simon Marks bc.1869 died Mar.1947 Manchester
                                      Amelia Marks bc.1865 died Dec.1943 Manchester

                                      (I note that when a different person with same name died his probate was in name of Marcovitch so this may be the original surname of your Simon).

                                      Annette
                                      good find, I saw Simon Marks death in Manchester and couldn't make the connection.
                                      Carolyn
                                      Family Tree site

                                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post

                                        There is a search box on this page - tried Simeon but didn't get a hit
                                        https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...h-citizenship/
                                        I think it will be a labor-of-love for mmarksx19 - We don't even know which section of that to look in. I did find this:
                                        https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C11727030

                                        but it seems too early for our man to be in Manchester.

                                        Not hearing an answer to this question - if he's on electoral rolls, he must be a citizen and therefore did naturalize, right?

                                        Any thoughts from annswabey ? AntonyM ?
                                        ------------------------------------------------------
                                        My Families
                                        London-area Coverly Family Finder DNA Project

                                        Comment

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