Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Can anyone please help

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Can anyone please help

    I have been researching the Morse family tree which is my wife’s side of the family. Her grandfather Sidney George Morse was born about 1885 in Swansea, Glamorgan. He married a Mary Gwendoline Barlow. My wife was always led to believe that Sidney’s parents were William Morse (born 1837) and Annie Maria Wheeler (born 1848). However, after requesting the birth certificate of the only Sidney George Morse which I could find born in the correct area and with the correct birth year, I find it states that his Mother’s name was Ann Williams but his Father’s name and occupation are correct. This is now making me doubt all previous research which I had done for Sidney’s ancestors. Can anyone suggest where I can go from here or has anyone else researched the same Morse tree and can tell me where I am going wrong. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

    #2
    Have you got the marriage of sidney to mary gwendoline barlow?
    what does it state for father's name and occupation? Does it tally with census entries?

    possibly anne williams was a first wife who died and william morse remarried to annie wheeler

    Comment


      #3
      Sydney George Morse mmn Williams
      Swansea 1885
      Sep quarter
      11a 794


      Val

      Comment


        #4
        Marriage cert is online at FMP
        17 dec 1871
        William Morse full age - widower - father James - both Mariners
        Ann Maria Wheeler full age - spinster - father - William Wheeler - Coal Merchant

        Edit: At Swansea, Glamorgan
        Last edited by Katarzyna; 06-10-20, 09:11.
        Kat
        https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

        Comment


          #5
          I'm going out but it looks like you need to find a death for Ann Maria and then a possible remarriage for William. It could be that William never actually married again.
          have you checked back on the censuses for Ann's places of birth and see how they tie up.1871 - t0 1901?
          Kat
          https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

          Comment


            #6
            This is a transcript of Sidney George’s baptism
            Sidney George
            Morse
            1885
            Birth Date 20 Aug 1885
            1885
            Baptism Date 03 Sep 1885
            Swansea, Christ Church
            Glamorganshire
            Wales
            William
            Ann
            149
            Glamorganshire Baptisms

            Comment


              #7
              There’s something odd going on here.

              I have found the wife and children on 1881 census and one of the children Fanny M does not appear with the family 1891 but she is with them 1901 as Fannie. The youngest child John H is plain John in 1891 but is not with the family in 1901. William the mariner father is at home both 1891 and 1901.
              The middle child however, has the same mms as Sidney George. All these children are born after the 1871 marriage found earlier. I am wondering if it has been the wife who registered the births as her husband would have been at sea when they occurred and a) either she misunderstood the question and gave her own mother’s maiden name instead of hers or b) the registrar did not ask the question properly. These things are not uncommon.

              Here’s the births.
              MORSE, FANNY MATILDA WHEELER
              GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 744
              MORSE, WILLIAM ROBERT WILLIAMS
              GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 714
              MORSE, JOHN HENRY WHEELER
              GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 598

              Comment


                #8
                As answer to my question about misunderstandings at the registrar over whose mms it might have been, I think that can safely be dismissed.
                In the various censuses 1881-1901, Ann / Annie Morse gives her birthplace as Wiltshire. 1881 Westbury and 1901 Devizes.
                I think this is her birth.
                WHEELER, ANN MARIA HUMPHRIES
                GRO Reference: 1848 S Quarter in WESTBURY AND WHORWELLSDOWN

                Comment


                  #9
                  There are other Morse families in Swansea according to GRO online births. The only other one I can find pre 1871 that has either of the two mms in the puzzle is this girl.
                  MORSE, MARY JANE WILLIAMS
                  GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in SWANSEA Volume 11A Page 610

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Just had a look at that 1871 marriage certificate. It was by licence so that should hopefully still exist somewhere and I see there are three witnesses, one of them an Elizabeth WILLIAMS.

                    Both bride and groom’s residence is Clarence Street which is not far from what is now known as the Maritime Quarter of Swansea which makes sense I suppose with William being a mariner. Google Maps has this;
                    A94736FA-574B-4D73-8774-3CC2E143418C.jpeg

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Here’s Ann in 1881 14 Slone Street. Don’t know why but John H. is not included on the transcript but he is in the image.
                      Anne Morse Head Married Female 30 1851 Mariners Wife Westbury, Wiltshire, England
                      Fanny M Morse Daughter Single Female 6 1875 Scholar Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales
                      William Morse Son Single Male 4 1877 Scholar Swansea, Glamorganshire, Wales
                      Slone [Sloane] Street is no longer there but it was next to the docks. The adjacent addresses in the census Dunvant Place, Paxton Terrace and Bathurst Street were demolished to make way for a Civic Centre. There are new streets with some of those names reused around the Civic Centre area.
                      1891 and 1901 the family are in Rodney Street which is close to both the old Sloane Street and Clarence Street. Here’s an old map of the dock streets area.

                      A3A553EA-26BD-42F8-8B56-B55847B52BCB.jpeg
                      Last edited by GallowayLass; 06-10-20, 13:57. Reason: Bit missing

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Could it just be that the registrar misheard the name (maybe as Ann was a foreigner) and thought it was Williams which is a much more common name? Looking on the 1911. William and Ann say they have been married 40 years, which matches with the marriage stated in post 4. Ann had 5 children, 4 of whom are still alive. Therefore it is a strong possibility that William Robert and Sidney George were both born to Ann Wheeler. I did find another couple, Lewis Morse and Sarah Jane Williams who married Dec Q 1883 and started having children immediately. There are also 2 children who died soon after birth both with mmn Williams.
                        Linda


                        My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                        Comment


                          #13
                          What’s bugging me is that I cannot find a match for Ann / Annie Maria in Swansea in 1871 census. I have also been right through all (I think) pages of Clarence Street and found nothing that matches any of the witnesses to the marriage either.
                          I did find Lavinia Martha Jenkins though in nearby Wellington Street. She is mistranscribed as Tonkins. Her parents were Orlando Ford and Sarah Lavinia Jenkins nee Marks. Her father is living with them. The transcription is iffy again but the marriage in Gloucestershire is transcribed on FMP with correct names and details. Sarah Lavinia is shown as being born Melksham, Wiltshire which is about 16 miles from Devizes.
                          Lavinia Martha Jenkins was only 14 though on 1871 census which makes her too young to have been a witness at a marriage? Maybe that’s why there are three signatories? But why was she even present as a witness, what’s the connection?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Given that in 1901 William Morse says he was born Bristol could this be his first marriage? Image courtesy of ancestry. The groom was baptised in the same church in 1840 again father James Morse, mariner. Mother Elizabeth.

                            The marriage below it was a Frederick Wheeler, miner aged 20 of Pange Street. Father William Wheeler, labourer. Just a co-incidence or not??

                            C6831C51-7370-46C3-8DD0-48D1CEB4B3AA.jpeg

                            EDIT UPDATE. scrub that. Louisa died Bristol 1879 and that William J Morse same father’s details went on to marry Mary Ann PIDGLEY in the same church 1880.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
                              Marriage cert is online at FMP
                              17 dec 1871
                              William Morse full age - widower - father James - both Mariners
                              Ann Maria Wheeler full age - spinster - father - William Wheeler - Coal Merchant

                              Edit: At Swansea, Glamorgan
                              I should have added the witnesses who are :
                              Robert Williams
                              Elizabeth Williams
                              Lavinia Martha Jenkins.

                              1851 census Possible? 22, Colston Street, Bedminster, Somerset
                              James Morse Head Married Male 45 1806 Mariner Watchet, Somerset, England
                              Elizabeth Morse Wife Married Female 43 1808 - Bridgwater, Somerset, England
                              Hannah Morse Daughter Unmarried Female 18 1833 Milliner Bridgwater, Somerset, England
                              Elizabeth Morse Daughter Unmarried Female 16 1835 Boot Binder Bridgwater, Somerset, England
                              T W Morse Son Unmarried Male 13 1838 Shoe Maker App Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
                              W J Morse Son - Male 10 1841 Scholar Bristol, Gloucestershire, England

                              Kat
                              https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by kylejustin View Post
                                Have you got the marriage of sidney to mary gwendoline barlow?
                                what does it state for father's name and occupation? Does it tally with census entries?

                                possibly anne williams was a first wife who died and william morse remarried to annie wheeler
                                Thank you for your interest. Yes I have the certificate. It states father's name is William Morse whose occupation was Assistant at Public Swimming Baths. This tallies with the 1901 census.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  I think this is them in 1841
                                  Friars, St Paul, Bristol, Gloucestershire - James Morse probably at Sea.
                                  John Webb Male 45 1796 -
                                  Elizabeth Morse Female 35 1806 - Mariner's wife
                                  Mary Morse Female 12 1829 -
                                  Hannah Morse Female 9 1832 -
                                  Elizabeth Morse Female 6 1835 -
                                  John Morse Male 4 1837 Born in County
                                  William Morse Male 1 1840 Born in County
                                  Kat
                                  https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by GallowayLass View Post
                                    Given that in 1901 William Morse says he was born Bristol could this be his first marriage? Image courtesy of ancestry. The groom was baptised in the same church in 1840 again father James Morse, mariner. Mother Elizabeth.

                                    The marriage below it was a Frederick Wheeler, miner aged 20 of Pange Street. Father William Wheeler, labourer. Just a co-incidence or not??

                                    C6831C51-7370-46C3-8DD0-48D1CEB4B3AA.jpeg

                                    EDIT UPDATE. scrub that. Louisa died Bristol 1879 and that William J Morse same father’s details went on to marry Mary Ann PIDGLEY in the same church 1880.
                                    Thank you for your interest and the many posts with a lot of information. I shall look at them all in more detail in the next few days.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Ah, this might be something. Ann Maria Wheeler, b 1848 in Westbury, Wiltshire, mmn Selina Humphries. In 1871 Selina is now living as a wife with Robert Williams in Swansea, and with her is her daughter Ann, now called Williams. The children born in Swansea also seem to have a mmn Humphries/Humphreys. I haven't yet found a marriage for Robert and Selina, but this could explain why Ann used both Williams and Wheeler.

                                      https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageview...1&pId=27081388
                                      Linda


                                      My avatar is my Grandmother Carolina Meulenhoff 1896 - 1955

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        ozgirl That’s a brilliant find.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X