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Charles Edward Lee's burial 09/10 /1953 Henley Road Cemetery, Caversham, Berks
b 1879 aged 74
Residence 14 Helston Gdns (as on 1939)
Vera
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Originally posted by teasie View PostHope Vera doesn't mind me answering,
1) Yes, its Charles Edward Lee on the 1939 with Sarah. They say they are married but in fact Sarah is a widow & Charles is married to someone else.
2) Sarah Butler married Charles Edward LAY 6 Apr 1912. She did not marry Charles Edward LEE as he was still married to someone else, but she assumed his surname.
I agree that the birth indexing/registration of Edward C indicates Charles Edward and Sarah not married at that time.
Vera
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Phew, thank you for helping me sort this out did anyone find his death (I can't remember lol - I'll go through the thread)!?
Tessie
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Hope Vera doesn't mind me answering,
1) Yes, its Charles Edward Lee on the 1939 with Sarah. They say they are married but in fact Sarah is a widow & Charles is married to someone else.
2) Sarah Butler married Charles Edward LAY 6 Apr 1912. She did not marry Charles Edward LEE as he was still married to someone else, but she assumed his surname.
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Originally posted by vera2013 View PostTessie there are two Charles Edwards.
A Sarah Butler m Charles Edward Lay in 1912. Reading Reg. This possibly is the one you have. That Charles Edward Lee's father was ? Henry. Charles Edward ? a Cowman on a farm
Charles Edward Lay b 1888 died 1927 Bradfield reg
Charles Edward Lee married in 1900 Annie King. On the 1939 she is recorded as married.
A Charles Edward Lee is on the 1939 with Sarah Lee. She is recorded as married a!though I noted there is an amendment to occupation from paid domestic work to unpaid.
Charles Edward Lee may have married bigamously but more likely to have lived together.
Vera
Teasie has found some births registered under Lee AND Lay on the GRO so Sarah he is 'married' to on the 1939 IS Sarah Lay nee Butler (she must have married Charles Edward Lay 1st)?
Or have I completely mis-understood?
Carolyn - these look interesting - I'll have a read later
Thanks everyone
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I've been a bit slow in understanding your first post (sorry!), but now I've looked at the 1939 register I think I'm finally with you, and I'm pretty sure they didn't marry.
If you check FreeBMD you'll see that Edward C Lee - the son on the 1939 register - has been indexed under two different surnames.
Lay, Edward C mmn Lay Henley 3a / 1808
Lee, Edward C mmn Lay Henley 3a / 1808
This is because children were not given their own surname on a birth certificate until much later.
The GRO has a quirky way of indexing births where the parents aren't married to each other, in that they only index it under the father's surname and show a dash for the mmn, and in order for the father to be named at all he would have to be present for the registration.
LEE, EDWARD COLIN [ - ] GRO Reference: 1934 S Quarter in HENLEY Volume 03A Page 1808
The other children seem to be indexed only once - under LAY mmn BUTLER and LEE mmn Butler - so I'd guess that on at least some of the certificates Charles wasn't present and Sarah wasn't consistent, but you'd need to see each of the certificates to be sure. Charles may not be the father of all of them as Charles Edward LAY didn't die until 1927 (buried 14 October), although I think the first LEE child was registered in 1926, Bradfield.
LAY, CHARLES EDWARD 39 GRO Reference: 1927 D Quarter in READING Volume 02C Page 395
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his army record is on FMP (not sure about ancestry didn't check) he was demobbed April 1919, address quoted is Southcote Lane. His son Ralph Death cert is in the records also.
Does seem to be a lot of info in there, and has all the children, except the names have faded.
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I realise that the name isn't super unique, but posting these here just in case it maybe him.
Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.10.54.png
could this be a child? you didn't give childrens names
Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.13.02.png
Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.12.21.png
Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.11.45.pngLast edited by cbcarolyn; 06-10-21, 22:24.
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Tessie there are two Charles Edwards.
A Sarah Butler m Charles Edward Lay in 1912. Reading Reg. This possibly is the one you have. That Charles Edward Lee's father was ? Henry. Charles Edward ? a Cowman on a farm
Charles Edward Lay b 1888 died 1927 Bradfield reg
Charles Edward Lee married in 1900 Annie King. On the 1939 she is recorded as married.
A Charles Edward Lee is on the 1939 with Sarah Lee. She is recorded as married a!though I noted there is an amendment to occupation from paid domestic work to unpaid.
Charles Edward Lee may have married bigamously but more likely to have lived together.
Vera
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Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
Just had a quick look. Trying to get my head round my own posts. Does the mc above relate to Sarah Butler to Charles Edward Lay. If so, this is not the marriage, if there is one, of Charles Edward Lee to Sarah Lay nee Butler.
I can see two children possibly from Lay/Butler marriage
Lay, Charles Henry reg 1918 Reading mm n Butler
Lay, Margaret H B reg 1924 Reading mm n Butler
There is a death for a Charles Edward Lay 1927 see Post 13th
From Lee/Lay nee Butler ? Marriage
Female reg Bradfield 1928
Lee Edward C reg Henley 1934 mmn Lay
Most probably didn't marry as Annie still alive in 1939
Vera
Off to look for a marriage of Charles E Lee to Sarah Lay!
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Originally posted by tessie31082 View PostSo, I got the marriage for Charles E Lay and Sarah - they say they are Bachelor and Spinster. Fathers name for Charles isn't William so doesn't match from his marriage to Annie. Not sure where to go now, I suppose his death could be missing somehow or maybe he ran off abroad or maybe he is Charles Lay and changed his name. Guess he is a brick wall!
I can see two children possibly from Lay/Butler marriage
Lay, Charles Henry reg 1918 Reading mm n Butler
Lay, Margaret H B reg 1924 Reading mm n Butler
There is a death for a Charles Edward Lay 1927 see Post 13th
From Lee/Lay nee Butler ? Marriage
Female reg Bradfield 1928
Lee Edward C reg Henley 1934 mmn Lay
Most probably didn't marry as Annie still alive in 1939
Vera
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Carolyn / Teasie, thanks for the replies!
He was born in 1878 Sandhurst / Easthampstead.
Married in Ipsden, Oxfordshire in 1900 to Annie King.
Living in Ipsden with his wife and children on the 1911.
The Army record 1915 has the transcribed Army number as 495164lc and says they live on Southcote Lane, Reading.
Last child I can find is Ralph born 1917. I can't find him after this.
His wife Annie says she is married on the 1939 (she is living with one of her sons George b. 1905).
Thanks both
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Originally posted by cbcarolyn View PostCan you confirm which records you have that are him? Save me reading through the thread
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Can you confirm which records you have that are him? Save me reading through the thread
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Hi all! Does anyone want to have one more bash at trying to find Charles Edward Lee's death / re-marriage / emigration?
Thanks Tessie
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So, I got the marriage for Charles E Lay and Sarah - they say they are Bachelor and Spinster. Fathers name for Charles isn't William so doesn't match from his marriage to Annie. Not sure where to go now, I suppose his death could be missing somehow or maybe he ran off abroad or maybe he is Charles Lay and changed his name. Guess he is a brick wall!
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Just to add. In the 1939 there is a single Charles Lee b 12 Dec 1877 in Bradfield, Berks, Ag Lab
Pretty sure he is the one I can see with parents Thomas and Elizabeth in 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911
There is one more Charles Lee b 1878 B Whitley but he is a widower in 1939.
The dc of Charles E Lee buried with Sarah is not likely to confirm he is your Cha rles. The dob is recorded as 1879. Unless of course truth comes out and it records widower of Annie.
I will re-read thread re that 1915 marriage as the first husband of Sarah Lay (nee Butler) is Charles Edward Lay who died 1927 and whose do b is 1888
Charles Edward Lay b 1888 aged 39
7 Kew Terrace
Died 1927. Buried 14/10/1927 St Michael, Tilehurst
Vera
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Originally posted by vera2013 View PostJust an update. Still think it is more likely that the Charles E Lee with Sarah in Reading is your man ie the estranged husband of Annie King.
There is a tenuous link to the Army records . Charles E states on the 09 Dec 1915 at attestation that he is aged 38 and 1 month. This gives a dob of 09 November 1877 which is a week out from that recorded on 1939 of 15 Nov 1877. However GRO reg is Dec q 1878 and death reg gives a dob of 1879.
Clutching at straws maybe. On the 1939 Sarah is recorded as carrying out Domestic Work which is altered to Unpaid Domestic Duties a phrase used for a married woman
The single Charles I found was recorded on the 1939 as living Bradfield, born 12 Dec 1877 but a Charles Lee was Registered on GRO Bradfield in the 1st Q of 1877. ?The son of Thos and Elizabeth.
Needs more checking to prove what was said by Grandmother
Vera
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Just an update. Still think it is more likely that the Charles E Lee with Sarah in Reading is your man ie the estranged husband of Annie King.
There is a tenuous link to the Army records . Charles E states on the 09 Dec 1915 at attestation that he is aged 38 and 1 month. This gives a dob of 09 November 1877 which is a week out from that recorded on 1939 of 15 Nov 1877. However GRO reg is Dec q 1878 and death reg gives a dob of 1879.
Clutching at straws maybe. On the 1939 Sarah is recorded as carrying out Domestic Work which is altered to Unpaid Domestic Duties a phrase used for a married woman
The single Charles I found was recorded on the 1939 as living Bradfield, born 12 Dec 1877 but a Charles Lee was Registered on GRO Bradfield in the 1st Q of 1877. ?The son of Thos and Elizabeth.
Needs more checking to prove what was said by Grandmother
Vera
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