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  • tessie31082
    replied
    Thanks Vera!

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Charles Edward Lee's burial 09/10 /1953 Henley Road Cemetery, Caversham, Berks
    b 1879 aged 74
    Residence 14 Helston Gdns (as on 1939)

    Vera

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by teasie View Post
    Hope Vera doesn't mind me answering,

    1) Yes, its Charles Edward Lee on the 1939 with Sarah. They say they are married but in fact Sarah is a widow & Charles is married to someone else.
    2) Sarah Butler married Charles Edward LAY 6 Apr 1912. She did not marry Charles Edward LEE as he was still married to someone else, but she assumed his surname.
    Not at all Teasie. I was aware I had come onto the thread at a time when you had posed a question and just wanted to summarise for Tessie the evidence for the two Charles Edwards.

    I agree that the birth indexing/registration of Edward C indicates Charles Edward and Sarah not married at that time.

    Vera

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  • tessie31082
    replied
    Phew, thank you for helping me sort this out did anyone find his death (I can't remember lol - I'll go through the thread)!?
    Tessie

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  • teasie
    replied
    Hope Vera doesn't mind me answering,

    1) Yes, its Charles Edward Lee on the 1939 with Sarah. They say they are married but in fact Sarah is a widow & Charles is married to someone else.
    2) Sarah Butler married Charles Edward LAY 6 Apr 1912. She did not marry Charles Edward LEE as he was still married to someone else, but she assumed his surname.

    Leave a comment:


  • tessie31082
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
    Tessie there are two Charles Edwards.

    A Sarah Butler m Charles Edward Lay in 1912. Reading Reg. This possibly is the one you have. That Charles Edward Lee's father was ? Henry. Charles Edward ? a Cowman on a farm

    Charles Edward Lay b 1888 died 1927 Bradfield reg

    Charles Edward Lee married in 1900 Annie King. On the 1939 she is recorded as married.

    A Charles Edward Lee is on the 1939 with Sarah Lee. She is recorded as married a!though I noted there is an amendment to occupation from paid domestic work to unpaid.

    Charles Edward Lee may have married bigamously but more likely to have lived together.

    ​​​​​​

    Vera
    Hi Vera, thanks for this. So I think 'my' Charles Edward Lee is the one with Sarah on the 1939 and although they say married aren't (or are but bigamously) - is this right?

    Teasie has found some births registered under Lee AND Lay on the GRO so Sarah he is 'married' to on the 1939 IS Sarah Lay nee Butler (she must have married Charles Edward Lay 1st)?

    Or have I completely mis-understood?

    Carolyn - these look interesting - I'll have a read later

    Thanks everyone

    Leave a comment:


  • teasie
    replied
    I've been a bit slow in understanding your first post (sorry!), but now I've looked at the 1939 register I think I'm finally with you, and I'm pretty sure they didn't marry.

    If you check FreeBMD you'll see that Edward C Lee - the son on the 1939 register - has been indexed under two different surnames.

    Lay, Edward C mmn Lay Henley 3a / 1808
    Lee, Edward C mmn Lay Henley 3a / 1808

    This is because children were not given their own surname on a birth certificate until much later.

    The GRO has a quirky way of indexing births where the parents aren't married to each other, in that they only index it under the father's surname and show a dash for the mmn, and in order for the father to be named at all he would have to be present for the registration.
    LEE, EDWARD COLIN [ - ] GRO Reference: 1934 S Quarter in HENLEY Volume 03A Page 1808

    The other children seem to be indexed only once - under LAY mmn BUTLER and LEE mmn Butler - so I'd guess that on at least some of the certificates Charles wasn't present and Sarah wasn't consistent, but you'd need to see each of the certificates to be sure. Charles may not be the father of all of them as Charles Edward LAY didn't die until 1927 (buried 14 October), although I think the first LEE child was registered in 1926, Bradfield.

    LAY, CHARLES EDWARD 39 GRO Reference: 1927 D Quarter in READING Volume 02C Page 395

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  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    his army record is on FMP (not sure about ancestry didn't check) he was demobbed April 1919, address quoted is Southcote Lane. His son Ralph Death cert is in the records also.

    Does seem to be a lot of info in there, and has all the children, except the names have faded.

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    I realise that the name isn't super unique, but posting these here just in case it maybe him.

    Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.10.54.png
    could this be a child? you didn't give childrens names
    Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.13.02.png
    Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.12.21.png
    Screenshot 2021-10-06 at 22.11.45.png
    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 06-10-21, 21:24.

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Tessie there are two Charles Edwards.

    A Sarah Butler m Charles Edward Lay in 1912. Reading Reg. This possibly is the one you have. That Charles Edward Lee's father was ? Henry. Charles Edward ? a Cowman on a farm

    Charles Edward Lay b 1888 died 1927 Bradfield reg

    Charles Edward Lee married in 1900 Annie King. On the 1939 she is recorded as married.

    A Charles Edward Lee is on the 1939 with Sarah Lee. She is recorded as married a!though I noted there is an amendment to occupation from paid domestic work to unpaid.

    Charles Edward Lee may have married bigamously but more likely to have lived together.

    ​​​​​​

    Vera

    Leave a comment:


  • tessie31082
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

    Just had a quick look. Trying to get my head round my own posts. Does the mc above relate to Sarah Butler to Charles Edward Lay. If so, this is not the marriage, if there is one, of Charles Edward Lee to Sarah Lay nee Butler.

    I can see two children possibly from Lay/Butler marriage

    Lay, Charles Henry reg 1918 Reading mm n Butler
    Lay, Margaret H B reg 1924 Reading mm n Butler

    There is a death for a Charles Edward Lay 1927 see Post 13th

    From Lee/Lay nee Butler ? Marriage

    Female reg Bradfield 1928

    Lee Edward C reg Henley 1934 mmn Lay

    Most probably didn't marry as Annie still alive in 1939


    Vera
    I'm annoyed - I can't find the MC I ordered - it's not in my file! I have put Charles Lay so that's the one I must have ordered! Maybe Annie didn't want to admit she was either divorced on the 1939 or maybe he married while still married so changed spelling of his name?
    Off to look for a marriage of Charles E Lee to Sarah Lay!

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Originally posted by tessie31082 View Post
    So, I got the marriage for Charles E Lay and Sarah - they say they are Bachelor and Spinster. Fathers name for Charles isn't William so doesn't match from his marriage to Annie. Not sure where to go now, I suppose his death could be missing somehow or maybe he ran off abroad or maybe he is Charles Lay and changed his name. Guess he is a brick wall!
    Just had a quick look. Trying to get my head round my own posts. Does the mc above relate to Sarah Butler to Charles Edward Lay. If so, this is not the marriage, if there is one, of Charles Edward Lee to Sarah Lay nee Butler.

    I can see two children possibly from Lay/Butler marriage

    Lay, Charles Henry reg 1918 Reading mm n Butler
    Lay, Margaret H B reg 1924 Reading mm n Butler

    There is a death for a Charles Edward Lay 1927 see Post 13th

    From Lee/Lay nee Butler ? Marriage

    Female reg Bradfield 1928

    Lee Edward C reg Henley 1934 mmn Lay

    Most probably didn't marry as Annie still alive in 1939


    Vera

    Leave a comment:


  • tessie31082
    replied
    Carolyn / Teasie, thanks for the replies!

    He was born in 1878 Sandhurst / Easthampstead.
    Married in Ipsden, Oxfordshire in 1900 to Annie King.
    Living in Ipsden with his wife and children on the 1911.
    The Army record 1915 has the transcribed Army number as 495164lc and says they live on Southcote Lane, Reading.
    Last child I can find is Ralph born 1917. I can't find him after this.
    His wife Annie says she is married on the 1939 (she is living with one of her sons George b. 1905).

    Thanks both

    Leave a comment:


  • teasie
    replied
    Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
    Can you confirm which records you have that are him? Save me reading through the thread
    Where & when he was born would also be helpful, along with full details of the last definite 'sighting' you have for him. An army record has also been mentioned - what was his service number?

    Leave a comment:


  • cbcarolyn
    replied
    Can you confirm which records you have that are him? Save me reading through the thread

    Leave a comment:


  • tessie31082
    replied
    Hi all! Does anyone want to have one more bash at trying to find Charles Edward Lee's death / re-marriage / emigration?

    Thanks Tessie

    Leave a comment:


  • tessie31082
    replied
    So, I got the marriage for Charles E Lay and Sarah - they say they are Bachelor and Spinster. Fathers name for Charles isn't William so doesn't match from his marriage to Annie. Not sure where to go now, I suppose his death could be missing somehow or maybe he ran off abroad or maybe he is Charles Lay and changed his name. Guess he is a brick wall!

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Just to add. In the 1939 there is a single Charles Lee b 12 Dec 1877 in Bradfield, Berks, Ag Lab

    Pretty sure he is the one I can see with parents Thomas and Elizabeth in 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911

    There is one more Charles Lee b 1878 B Whitley but he is a widower in 1939.

    The dc of Charles E Lee buried with Sarah is not likely to confirm he is your Cha rles. The dob is recorded as 1879. Unless of course truth comes out and it records widower of Annie.

    I will re-read thread re that 1915 marriage as the first husband of Sarah Lay (nee Butler) is Charles Edward Lay who died 1927 and whose do b is 1888

    Charles Edward Lay b 1888 aged 39
    7 Kew Terrace
    Died 1927. Buried 14/10/1927 St Michael, Tilehurst


    Vera



    ​​​​​​

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  • tessie31082
    replied
    Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
    Just an update. Still think it is more likely that the Charles E Lee with Sarah in Reading is your man ie the estranged husband of Annie King.

    There is a tenuous link to the Army records . Charles E states on the 09 Dec 1915 at attestation that he is aged 38 and 1 month. This gives a dob of 09 November 1877 which is a week out from that recorded on 1939 of 15 Nov 1877. However GRO reg is Dec q 1878 and death reg gives a dob of 1879.

    Clutching at straws maybe. On the 1939 Sarah is recorded as carrying out Domestic Work which is altered to Unpaid Domestic Duties a phrase used for a married woman

    The single Charles I found was recorded on the 1939 as living Bradfield, born 12 Dec 1877 but a Charles Lee was Registered on GRO Bradfield in the 1st Q of 1877. ?The son of Thos and Elizabeth.

    ​​​​​​Needs more checking to prove what was said by Grandmother

    Vera
    Thanks Vera, should I order Charles E married to Sarah death cert? If the name has been mis-transcribed as Lay and they did marry in 1915 how did he have a child with his 1st wife in 1917? What am I mising there? I'm so confused with this man lol!

    Leave a comment:


  • vera2013
    replied
    Just an update. Still think it is more likely that the Charles E Lee with Sarah in Reading is your man ie the estranged husband of Annie King.

    There is a tenuous link to the Army records . Charles E states on the 09 Dec 1915 at attestation that he is aged 38 and 1 month. This gives a dob of 09 November 1877 which is a week out from that recorded on 1939 of 15 Nov 1877. However GRO reg is Dec q 1878 and death reg gives a dob of 1879.

    Clutching at straws maybe. On the 1939 Sarah is recorded as carrying out Domestic Work which is altered to Unpaid Domestic Duties a phrase used for a married woman

    The single Charles I found was recorded on the 1939 as living Bradfield, born 12 Dec 1877 but a Charles Lee was Registered on GRO Bradfield in the 1st Q of 1877. ?The son of Thos and Elizabeth.

    ​​​​​​Needs more checking to prove what was said by Grandmother

    Vera

    Leave a comment:

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