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    Unable to locate a burial site - hit a brick wall!

    Hello

    I am trying to trace where my ancestor Henry Frederick Nagle's is buried, i have hit a real brick wall! I've been searching on and off for a burial record for over 5 years and lockdown has brought him back into focus!

    He died on 18th March 1946 at St Francis Hospital, Dulwich, London, the cause of death was recorded as "taking his own life whilst the balance of his mind was disturbed", he had attempted to commit suicide the day before and dies as a result of the wounds inflicted.

    So far i have managed to find lots of basic information about him including the inquest papers and statements, he had a wife but they were living apart, he also had a daughter who gave witness evidence at the inquest, but after the inquest the trail goes completelycold, despite visiting all of the nearby cemetaries as well as looking at records online i can find no burial record for him.

    Does anybody have any ideas or tips or what i can try next, the Coroners Court after the enquiry would have presumably released the body for burial, would there be a record of this? If not i assume he would have had a paupers funeral, would there be a record of this? As he died by taking his own life would he have been buried in consecrated ground, and if not was there a record of burials in un-consecrated grounds?

    Any tips or help would be invaluable here as i'm getting to the point of giving up!

    Cheers

    Neil

    #2
    Have you tried Camberwell New Cemetery? Would be in the area for where Henry was living prior to his hospital admission ie Brixton and for East Dulwich where hospital was sited. However family may have chosen to have Henry buried/cremated where they were living

    Vera

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
      Have you tried Camberwell New Cemetery? Would be in the area for where Henry was living prior to his hospital admission ie Brixton and for East Dulwich where hospital was sited. However family may have chosen to have Henry buried/cremated where they were living

      Vera

      Thanks for the reply, yes, i went to all of the local cemetaries about 5 years ago, nothing in any of them, his immeadiate family lived in the same area as him so you would assume he would be buried locally.....!

      Comment


        #4
        Perhaps the daughter who gave witness evidence at the inquest had his ashes scattered at a favourite place. Neither of my parents have a grave or memorial. They requested their ashes to be scattered through a favourite wood where they regularly walked. My uncle was in the Royal Navy and was buried at sea.
        Are you not able to ask the family?
        Last edited by Katarzyna; 23-09-20, 22:02.
        Kat
        https://www.pinterest.co.uk/katarzyna1234/my-own-cards/

        Comment


          #5
          According to Camberwell website all records are on Deceased on line, but like you say his name not on there

          https://www.southwark.gov.uk/births-...gical-searches

          My thoughts
          Do you know when the coroners finished?

          Name could be written wrong especially if non family involved?

          Where was the daughter based?

          Where was he based prior to being in the hospital, wondering if he was living in a neighbouring district, the local council may have been involved in the burial/cremation. They may have his possessions/funds if no one else took control.
          Carolyn
          Family Tree site

          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

          Comment


            #6
            There is a Will on Ancestry administration to Ellen Nagle, Widow
            At time of death Henry was living at 3 Offley Road, Brixton.


            If the LA arranged the Funeral it would be Lambeth. You can search their site for funerals on bereavement page.

            Vera


            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Katarzyna View Post
              Perhaps the daughter who gave witness evidence at the inquest had his ashes scattered at a favourite place. Neither of my parents have a grave or memorial. They requested their ashes to be scattered through a favourite wood where they regularly walked. My uncle was in the Royal Navy and was buried at sea.
              Are you not able to ask the family?

              Thanks for your response, unfortunately there are no direct living relatives on this side of the family who remembers anything about him, my Dad only met him once and an elderly Aunt met him a couple of times but doesn't remember anything else!

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                According to Camberwell website all records are on Deceased on line, but like you say his name not on there

                https://www.southwark.gov.uk/births-...gical-searches

                My thoughts
                Do you know when the coroners finished?

                Name could be written wrong especially if non family involved?

                Where was the daughter based?

                Where was he based prior to being in the hospital, wondering if he was living in a neighbouring district, the local council may have been involved in the burial/cremation. They may have his possessions/funds if no one else took control.

                Thanks, yes i have the coroners report, the surname is spelled correctly, i have come across this in the past when searching so i have checked variables! The daughter lived locally but died in 1948, i suspect he had a LA funeral as the coroners report clearly states he was uninsured and also that he lived at a different address quite often from that he gave, an indication that he was pretty much a vagrant.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by vera2013 View Post
                  There is a Will on Ancestry administration to Ellen Nagle, Widow
                  At time of death Henry was living at 3 Offley Road, Brixton.


                  If the LA arranged the Funeral it would be Lambeth. You can search their site for funerals on bereavement page.

                  Vera

                  Hello Vera

                  Yes, i went to view this a few years back i think in a building on High Holborn and it didn't really give much of a clue what happened, unusually i didn't take a copy so might have another look if i can't find anything else.

                  I'll have a look at the site you suggested as i suspect the LA did arrange the funeral.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    For public health funerals, the decision whether it is a burial or cremation would be based on religious grounds and cost.

                    But I don't know if cremation was cheaper in 1946.

                    Lambeth seem to be saying all records are on deceased on line.

                    https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/bereaveme...mation-records

                    Have you looked at each of the churches near Offley Road? Genuki have maps no sure how comprehensive the lists are:
                    https://www.genuki.org.uk/node/138174/churches/3

                    Any idea of his religion?
                    Last edited by cbcarolyn; 24-09-20, 08:34.
                    Carolyn
                    Family Tree site

                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by neilnagle View Post

                      Hello Vera

                      Yes, i went to view this a few years back i think in a building on High Holborn and it didn't really give much of a clue what happened, unusually i didn't take a copy so might have another look if i can't find anything else.

                      I'll have a look at the site you suggested as i suspect the LA did arrange the funeral.
                      Just read up a bit on Pauper funerals. Not sure if this relates to 1946 but the local authority where the person died has responsibility for arranging the Funeral not the LA within which the person lived. So Southwark but you have been there checking out Camberwell cemeteries. However they do also have Nunhead Cemetery and Honor Oak Crematorium listed on their web page.

                      Vera

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                        For public health funerals, the decision whether it is a burial or cremation would be based on religious grounds and cost.

                        But I don't know if cremation was cheaper in 1946.

                        Lambeth seem to be saying all records are on deceased on line.

                        https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/bereaveme...mation-records

                        Have you looked at each of the churches near Offley Road? Genuki have maps no sure how comprehensive the lists are:
                        https://www.genuki.org.uk/node/138174/churches/3

                        Any idea of his religion?
                        I typed whilst you posted Carolyn. On Lambeth's bereavement page EDIT 'Our Cemeteries and Crematoria' Funeral Services Diary you can search for funerals but would need a likely date. I did look at April/May but maybe Henry's body not released by Coroner until later.

                        Vera

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                          For public health funerals, the decision whether it is a burial or cremation would be based on religious grounds and cost.

                          But I don't know if cremation was cheaper in 1946.

                          Lambeth seem to be saying all records are on deceased on line.

                          https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/bereaveme...mation-records

                          Have you looked at each of the churches near Offley Road? Genuki have maps no sure how comprehensive the lists are:
                          https://www.genuki.org.uk/node/138174/churches/3

                          Any idea of his religion?

                          Likewise, i'm unsure if cremation was cheaper or not, and yes i did see that Lambeth were advising that, i've not looked into too much detail at the local churches yet but will do so at some point, religion is a bit of an unknown also, as an example, his father who was my Great Grandfather was born Anglican but is buried in a RC cemetary in Leytonstone, at no point in my research into him was it ever suggested he was RC, even when he died in the infirmiary they had him registed as CofE!!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

                            Just read up a bit on Pauper funerals. Not sure if this relates to 1946 but the local authority where the person died has responsibility for arranging the Funeral not the LA within which the person lived. So Southwark but you have been there checking out Camberwell cemeteries. However they do also have Nunhead Cemetery and Honor Oak Crematorium listed on their web page.

                            Vera
                            Thanks again Vera, i've approached the Lambeth archives to see if they have anything, will do as well with Southwark, i've also asked the Coroners Court if they have any other records apart from the inqeust papers such as when the body was released and to whom, i'm not sure if there records go back to 1946 but its worth a try.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

                              Just read up a bit on Pauper funerals. Not sure if this relates to 1946 but the local authority where the person died has responsibility for arranging the Funeral not the LA within which the person lived. So Southwark but you have been there checking out Camberwell cemeteries. However they do also have Nunhead Cemetery and Honor Oak Crematorium listed on their web page.

                              Vera
                              I did wonder if this was a bit of an unusual one as he was in hospital?

                              If a person was living on their own, the LA will go into the premises (this is what I know now from working in a LA) and will remove any cash, they will also try to ascertain if they have any funds, and then arrange for the premises to be cleared. They will also try and find relatives.

                              The funeral will be arranged, at MK this was sorted out by the Cem and crem manager and she would also attend Any cash/cash raised will be used to offset the cost.

                              I note that the will said £110.

                              Shame I am n longer working would give chap a ring that I used to deal with it!

                              Carolyn
                              Family Tree site

                              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by neilnagle View Post


                                Likewise, i'm unsure if cremation was cheaper or not, and yes i did see that Lambeth were advising that, i've not looked into too much detail at the local churches yet but will do so at some point, religion is a bit of an unknown also, as an example, his father who was my Great Grandfather was born Anglican but is buried in a RC cemetary in Leytonstone, at no point in my research into him was it ever suggested he was RC, even when he died in the infirmiary they had him registed as CofE!!
                                You are probably aware that Henry was keen to serve his country during WW1 enlisting in the Army and Navy but being discharged on medical grounds. One record has him being discharged in Wales (Brother living there) to an address in Wales. Religion RC

                                As a last resort Henry may have chose to donate his body for medical research, following which funeral would be carried out with remains being cremated. This site may have a record

                                London Anatomy Office
                                Hodgkin Buildings
                                Kings College London
                                Guys Campus
                                London SE1

                                Vera

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by vera2013 View Post

                                  You are probably aware that Henry was keen to serve his country during WW1 enlisting in the Army and Navy but being discharged on medical grounds. One record has him being discharged in Wales (Brother living there) to an address in Wales. Religion RC

                                  As a last resort Henry may have chose to donate his body for medical research, following which funeral would be carried out with remains being cremated. This site may have a record

                                  London Anatomy Office
                                  Hodgkin Buildings
                                  Kings College London
                                  Guys Campus
                                  London SE1

                                  Vera
                                  Hello Vera

                                  Yes, i have those papers somewhere but clearly missed the part on religion! I think i will go back and have a look at the registers at the RC Cemetary in Leytonstone at some point but will also focus on RC churches that were local to him in Brixton.

                                  I really wouldn't have thought he would have been of sound enough mind to donate his body, but as you rightly say it will be worth checking as a last resort, i know there will be a record out there somewhere, its just finding that last piece of the jigsaw.


                                  Neil

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    there is a RC church a stones throw from his last address.
                                    Carolyn
                                    Family Tree site

                                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
                                      there is a RC church a stones throw from his last address.
                                      Yes, there are two on Brixton Road and one further up on Brixton Hill, these will probably be my starting point for the area.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        As we're talking RC, I would concentrate on burial rather than cremation, especially in 1946. I think it was 1963 when it was decreed that RCs could be cremated.
                                        Janet in Yorkshire



                                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                        Comment

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