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    Help with 1861 census, please

    Can anyone find Lavinia Margaret Christie, widow, born Great Ouseburn c1826? Her five children were in Scarborough with the governess and house staff. Her parents had retired to Scarborough, but Lavinia was not recorded at their house. By 1871 she had moved to Paddington, where she continued to live until her death in 1902.
    Janet in Yorkshire



    Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

    #2
    She’s badly mistranscribed on FMP

    She is visiting a John W Robinson (wine merchant) born Knaresborough and his wife Augusta and their family.
    First name
    Lamind
    Last name
    Christer
    Birth year
    1827
    Birth county
    Yorkshire
    Registration district
    St Pancras
    Parish
    St Pancras
    County
    London, Middlesex

    ancestry has a totally different mistranscription. Louisa Christos.

    Comment


      #3
      GallowayLass! You are a whiz at finding missing people!
      Main research interests.. CAESAR (Surrey and London), GOODALL (London), SKITTERALL, WOODWARD (Middlesex and London), BARBER (Canterbury, Kent) and CHEESEMAN (Kent).

      Comment


        #4
        ooh good find - was just looking, would never have found that. Did get sidetracked looking at the newspapers, and see was trying to let the Hall, and then it was up for sale. she must have been house hunting!

        How did you find that?
        Carolyn
        Family Tree site

        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by cbcarolyn View Post
          ooh good find - was just looking, would never have found that. Did get sidetracked looking at the newspapers, and see was trying to let the Hall, and then it was up for sale. she must have been house hunting!

          How did you find that?
          Had no joy with L*v*n* and no surname and 1826 +/- 5 years female and born Yorkshire. So changed tack and hoped they at least had the first part of Christie correct. Searched Christ* and no forename with the rest as before. Fortunately only 27 results to look through.

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks GL - what a star you are

            Carolyn, If you mean Melbourne Hall, it was left to her eldest son, James, who went to live there when he was 21. He died when he was 24. I'm awaiting his death cert and also his will as one of his brothers then lived at the hall He eventually sold it and so I'm curious to know if he inherited it from his deceased brother. The Christie family are not part of my tree but are a part of a local history project I've been working on for some years and I'm now taking advantage of the cheap wills to help me dot some of the i's and cross the t's. It seems the lady of the manor (a spinster and somewhat eccentric) took an interest in the Christie children and probably paid for their education - she certainly set up Lavinia's husband and helped him to become established. She died at Melbourne Hall rather than at her own home and seems to have left all her estate to Lavinia's husband and his brother.
            Janet in Yorkshire



            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

            Comment


              #7
              I only kind of glanced at papers, it looks like there were debts, then in 1860 it was to let, and in 1862 up for sale.

              I can look again
              Carolyn
              Family Tree site

              Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
              Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

              Comment


                #8
                York Herald 29 March 1862.
                York Herald 29 March 1862.png
                Yorkshire Gazette 14 May 1859

                Yorkshire Gazette 14 May 1859.png
                York Herald 05 May 1860

                York Herald 05 May 1860.png
                Carolyn
                Family Tree site

                Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                Comment


                  #9
                  I'll know more when I receive the wills, but I've always assumed that he borrowed cash to buy the Melboourne estate and that there could have been a cash flow problem when James died unexpectedly at the age of 33. He left less than £5,000. James & Lavinia's son, James jnr, died in 1876 at the age of 24 - his effects were valued at under £70,000. I'm really looking forward to viewing the death certs and also the wills. Lavinia's husband James was the son of a gamekeeper, so he did well and she didn't do badly out of it all, either!
                  Lavinia's son Hugh sold the Melbourne estate in 1890 for £40,000.
                  In addition to Melbourne Hall, which James had bought for himself, he and his brother had inherited a large estate from the old lady. After the death of James jnr, this estate was sold and brought in a large sum of money, so the whole family were able to live in comfort. Lavinia's daughters all married into county families.
                  Janet in Yorkshire



                  Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                  Comment


                    #10
                    interesting, you will have to let us know what the wills and certs say. the newspapers have the marriages and births reported. oddly there is this in March 76 before James death, and also a report in Jan saying that James from Melbourne Hall, maybe joint owners. Did they do that?
                    Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer 04 March 1876.png
                    Carolyn
                    Family Tree site

                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                    Comment


                      #11
                      wow just seen where he moved to what beautiful properties, mainly converted to flats. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-pr...wn.html?page=1
                      Carolyn
                      Family Tree site

                      Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                      Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Interesting! I have a snippet that in January 1876 James Christie dispensed a gift of coal amongst the poor of Melbourne.

                        Also notes that Hugh was president of Melbourne horse & foal soc 1878 & 1879
                        Hugh married in early 1879 and lived at Melbourne Hall when his son was born 1879 & his daughter in Dec 1880

                        With regards to the cutting in #10, perhaps Hugh went with his elder brother James and they both lived at the Hall?? It will be interesting to see if the death cert gives any indication of a medical condition or disability. Maybe Hugh was running the show to assist his brother?? I have wondered if there could have been some medical problem in the family as other members died in their forties. Interestingly, the youngest brother of James sen (and brother in law of Lavinia) was married with seven children and was then confined to a lunatic asylum. He jumped out of an upstairs window and broke an ankle, which had to be amputated. He developed post-operative fever & complications, which resulted in his death on 1 Mar 1870. He was 35 years old.

                        I think Hugh possibly had money worries in the early 1880s, which may have been eased when the larger estate was sold.

                        The old lady benefactress also came from a colourful family - she inherited two estates from her brother, neither of them married and both seem to have been somewhat odd. They were brought up by their paternal grandfather, because when they were still young children, their 33 yr old father was found guilty of murder and was hanged. One estate was inherited from this grandfather and the other one from a maternal line. Unfortunately the numerous bequests in that will far exceeded the value of the estate and there was a couple of decades of wrangling to sort this out and a lot of borrowing. It took me years to sort them out as people kept changing their surnames to meet with the conditions of legacies - the old woman and her brother used different surnames, these both differed from their birth surname, which was the one their father had taken when he changed his surname, grandfather was referred to by yet another surname. So I am dealing with two dysfunctional families to begin with!


                        Janet in Yorkshire



                        Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                        Comment


                          #13
                          it did say what James died of in one of the reports, blockage of the lungs? I can't remember. and there was a huge estate up for sale the other side of York and said Mrs Christie was land owner, was that one of the estates?

                          sounds like an 'interesting' family. Certainly many reports in paper, including all the usual BMDs
                          Carolyn
                          Family Tree site

                          Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                          Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                          Comment


                            #14
                            James sen died of congestion of the lungs.
                            Yes, the old lady's brother inherited from their paternal grandfather two estates in adjacent villages quite near York. I think she may have sold off one though.I am about to send off for her will in the hope that it gives more detail than the abstract I have, but that will has to come from the archives at York, as it went through probate in 1852.Her two forenames were reversed when the will was indexed and so it's only fairly recently that I "discovered" it afters years of searching with no success. Another of those fall off the chair moments. Apparently the old lady's brother used to patrol the borders of his estate with a gun and threatened to shoot at anyone who set foot on his land.So a lot of colourful characters feature in the project!
                            Thank you for your continued interest, help and suggestions, Carolyn.
                            Janet in Yorkshire



                            Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I've been busy reviewing what I've got on the Christies. James sen was the eldest of eight children. When their parents married in 1825, the father Alexander was a gamekeeper. All eight children were sent away to various schools in the county to be educated, including the girls who were at a boarding establishment in York in 1841. This does seem most unusual for the 1830's and 1840's for the eight children of a man working for his living. I feel quite sure the old lady must have paid for this, but don't think I'll ever be able to prove it
                              Janet in Yorkshire



                              Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                              Comment


                                #16
                                The death cert for James junior has arrived.
                                Oh dear me - cirrhosis of the liver, haematemesis and icterus.(For those like me who have no medical expertise, haematemesis is vomiting blood and icterus is jaundice.) He was 24 years old.
                                Earlier in the week, my neighbour gave me a bottle of red wine and I was going to open it and indulge myself with a glass of it tonight. However, having just read the definition of haematemesis. I've suddenly gone right off the idea

                                At least the old lady died of valvular heart disease and dropsy - she died at Melbourne Hall (James senior's home) and he was present at the death and also acted as informant. She was 77 years old, so hadn't had a bad innings for those days.

                                I am now awaiting the wills of both James sen and James jnr, and also a will relating to the next family to own one part of the estate which I think James inherited from the old lady. (The Christies put it up for sale in 1875 when James jnr attained his majority. It was bought as an investment by an industrialist, the deal being completed in March 1878.) I think that sale put the fortunes of the remaining Christies onto a sound footing.)
                                Janet in Yorkshire



                                Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
                                  I've been busy reviewing what I've got on the Christies. James sen was the eldest of eight children. When their parents married in 1825, the father Alexander was a gamekeeper. All eight children were sent away to various schools in the county to be educated, including the girls who were at a boarding establishment in York in 1841. This does seem most unusual for the 1830's and 1840's for the eight children of a man working for his living. I feel quite sure the old lady must have paid for this, but don't think I'll ever be able to prove it
                                  yes, can't seem viable for a gamekeeper to afford that. I did notice that the gamekeepers wife died in Hughs time and there was announcement in paper - so must have held the gamekeeper in high esteem!
                                  Carolyn
                                  Family Tree site

                                  Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                  Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Janet in Yorkshire View Post
                                    James sen died of congestion of the lungs.
                                    Yes, the old lady's brother inherited from their paternal grandfather two estates in adjacent villages quite near York. I think she may have sold off one though.I am about to send off for her will in the hope that it gives more detail than the abstract I have, but that will has to come from the archives at York, as it went through probate in 1852.Her two forenames were reversed when the will was indexed and so it's only fairly recently that I "discovered" it afters years of searching with no success. Another of those fall off the chair moments. Apparently the old lady's brother used to patrol the borders of his estate with a gun and threatened to shoot at anyone who set foot on his land.So a lot of colourful characters feature in the project!
                                    Thank you for your continued interest, help and suggestions, Carolyn.
                                    I think I saw something about trespassers in the papers!
                                    Carolyn
                                    Family Tree site

                                    Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                    Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      The two wills were available this morning.
                                      James sen made his will at the beginning of 1853, following the death of the old lady and confirms that by then he had ownership of her two estates, as well as Melbourne Hall, which he had bought for himself. At that time he and Lavinia had just the two children - he left the larger of the two estates he had just inherited to James jnr and Melbourne Hall to his younger son Hugh.The smaller estate he had inherited from the old woman was to be shared between his two youngest brothers and the other two brothers were each to be paid a sum of £10,000 in accordance with the old lady's will. He added a codicil in 1858 when it was all change, to make provision for the rest of his children. Trustees were appointed and James and Hugh were to inherit their estates when they attained the age of 23 years. I think raising the funds to pay out personal bequests probably caused financial difficulties for Lavinia and the trustees - assets but no cash! He died in 1858

                                      James jnr made his will in 1875, when he was 23. He made bequests to his brothers, grandmother and servants, with the bulk of his estate (which he was in the process of selling) going to his mother. When Hugh passed the 23 years marker, he too sold up.

                                      I think I've accomplished my mission now - it is the history of one of the estates that I'm working on, rather than the Christie family per se, but they have provided a very interesting interlude and one of the descendants has brought up my first encounter with the divorce courts! A married grand-daughter of James sen spent the night in a hotel in Lincoln with a man who was not her husband. Swoon, swoon, the shock and disgrace! Unfortunately for her he was a serial womaniser and was involved in two more divorce cases after she had married him.

                                      Thanks to all who have helped with this thread.
                                      Janet in Yorkshire



                                      Genealogists never die - they just swap places in the family tree

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Interesting, have you followed the estate right through to the present day?

                                        I have not done much researching of buildings/estates and just dabbled around with a few friends that live in old properties. I assume you can get to Land registry records these days as they are on line. Now they have a portal I actually don't know anything about it - other than I used to log in once at month at work and download all the activity!

                                        Many years ago I did get copies of the land here as no one seemed to know who owned the land beyond our garden, when it was all manual forms and one of the solicitors at work helped me apply for it.

                                        Carolyn
                                        Family Tree site

                                        Researching: Luggs, Freeman - Cornwall; Dayman, Hobbs, Heard - Devon; Wilson, Miles - Northants; Brett, Everett, Clark, Allum - Herts/Essex
                                        Also interested in Proctor, Woodruff

                                        Comment

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